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Fixing a Wet Basement

If you have a damp basement, repair work has to begin outside

Posted on Sep 27 2013 by Martin Holladay

A hundred years ago, homes had cellars, not basements. The typical cellar has stone-and-mortar walls and a dirt floor. Such a cellar is cool and humid, so it's the perfect place to store carrots and potatoes. If a cellar floor got wet during the spring thaw, no one cared. After all, it’s not as if anyone was playing ping pong down there.

These days, however, most homeowners expect basements to stay dry. During the 1930s and 1940s, as basements gradually replaced cellars, construction specifications for residential foundations improved. Poured concrete walls replaced stone walls; concrete slabs replaced dirt floors. Some builders even included footing drains.

But the results of these efforts were uneven. Millions of Americans are still living in homes with damp basements.

New construction tips

This article will focus on ways to fix a damp basement so that it’s dry enough to use as indoor living space. Before tackling that topic, though, I’ll briefly outline the steps used during a new construction project to keep the basement dry.

Remember: fixing a wet basement can cost tens of thousands of dollars. It will never be easier to get the details right than when a home is first built; spending a few hundred extra dollars now can save thousands later.

If you are building a new home, and you want a dry basement, you should specify:

  • Wide roof overhangs to keep rain away from the foundation;
  • Gutters at the roof eaves; these gutters should be connected to conductor pipes that convey the roof water far from the house (either to daylight or a dry wellUnderground structure that captures, then slowly releases storm-water runoff so that it can be absorbed by the soil.);
  • A 4-inch-thick layer of crushed stone under the basement slab as a capillaryForces that lift water or pull it through porous materials, such as concrete. The tendency of a material to wick water due to the surface tension of the water molecules. break; the crushed stone layer needs to be vented through the roof to help control radonColorless, odorless, short-lived radioactive gas that can seep into homes and result in lung cancer risk. Radon and its decay products emit cancer-causing alpha, beta, and gamma particles.;
  • A layer of horizontal rigid foam on top of the crushed stone to insulate the slab from the cold soil below;
  • A layer of polyethylene above the rigid foam (directly under the concrete slab) to act as a vapor barrier;
  • At least one 4-inch-diameter drain pipe running through the footing, to connect the crushed stone layer under your basement slab with the exterior footing drain;
  • A capillary break (for example, an asphaltic dampproofing compound, UGL DryLok, or elastomeric paint) between the top of the concrete footing and the foundation wall;
  • A ring of perforated drain pipe on the outside of the footing, surrounded by crushed stone and wrapped with filter fabric to make a “burrito,” drained to daylight, to a distant drywell, or to an interior sump;
  • An application of dampproofing compound or waterproofing compound on the exterior side of the concrete foundation walls;
  • A layer of dimple-mat drainage board installed on the exterior side of the foundation walls; failing that, the foundation should be backfilled with coarse, free-draining material like crushed stone, topped with an 8-inch layer of dirt (ideally, dirt with a high clay content);
  • A bead of sealant to seal the crack between the basement slab and the basement walls;
  • Closed-cell foam sill seal between the top of the foundation walls and the mudsill, to reduce air leakage and to act as a capillary break.

Unless you are planning to have a basement bedroom, it’s best to eliminate basement windows, since windows can provide paths for water leaks.

That wet basement smell

If your basement is damp, it's probably because some of the measures advised for new construction are missing. For example, many older homes have no footing drain or polyethylene under the slab.

How do you know that your basement is damp? There are lots of signs. For example, when you put a cardboard box on the floor, the cardboard disintegrates. Maybe you noticed that mold is growing under a carpet. Maybe the walls feel damp.

Another clue is the distinctive odor of mold.

Mold is associated with high humidity. The humidity in your basement may be coming from the soil — water can leak through cracks in a concrete wall, or moisture may be constantly evaporating form the interior side of the vapor-permeable and always-damp concrete — or the humidity may be condensing from the air inside your home.

During the winter, condensation occurs near the top of the basement walls, since those areas are coldest. During the summer, on the other hand, the coldest concrete surfaces are the slab and the lower sections of the foundation walls — so that’s where the condensation happens.

There are two reasons you might want to install a continuous layer of rigid foam insulation under a basement slab. First of all, the insulation slows heat loss during the winter. More importantly, perhaps, the insulation warms up the slab during the summer, reducing the chance of condensation. That means that your basement won’t smell moldy, and your slab will be warm enough to allow you to install carpeting. (If you install carpeting on an uninsulated slab, there is a high likelihood that you have established conditions for a mold farm.)

First things first

So, you know that your basement is damp, and you want to fix it. What’s the first thing to do?

Many homeowners guess — wrongly — that the first step is to install a dehumidifier. Actually, installing a dehumidifier is an action of last resort. After all, installing a dehumidifier condemns you to a lifetime of high energy bills.

Cover dirt floors with polyethylene. Although this step may be obvious, it still belongs at the top of the list. If a portion of your basement has a dirt floor, the first step is to cover the dirt with a layer of polyethylene that is at least 6 mils thick. If your budget is tight, weigh down the polyethylene with stones or a few bricks. If your budget can handle the expense, pour a concrete slab over the polyethylene.

If you are planning to install a slab, it usually makes sense to dig out some of the soil first, to gain a few inches of ceiling height. Then install a layer of crushed stone, a horizontal layer of rigid insulation (plus some vertical insulation at the perimeter), a layer of polyethylene, and a new concrete slab.

Check your roof gutters. If there are no gutters at the eaves of your roof, it’s time to install them. Non-perforated conductor pipes should convey the roof water to a location far from your house — to daylight or a dry well at least 10 feet from your foundation. Make sure that your gutter pipes aren’t connected to your footing drains.

If your roof already has gutters, get out your ladder and clean them.

If you don’t want to install roof gutters because of concerns over ice damage, you can install so-called “in-ground” gutters instead. For more information on in-ground gutters, see Ground Gutters and Inground Gutters.

Adjust the grade around the outside of your house. If you’re lucky, the finish grade around your foundation slopes away from the house in all directions. If your house is on a sloping site, the water flowing downhill toward your house should (ideally) be intercepted by a swale that directs rain far from your foundation.

That’s the way things should be. But if you have a wet basement, there’s a good chance that the grade around your house isn’t like that.

Maybe some of the soil near the foundation has settled, creating a low spot. Maybe rainwater pools in your yard. Maybe you have a concrete patio with a reverse slope that directs water toward your house.

Perhaps you’ve known about these problems for years, but you haven’t had the strength to tackle them. Well, it’s time to tackle them.

If you’re lucky, fixing your grading problems will take no more than a wheelbarrow, a shovel, and a rake. If you’re unlucky, you’ll need to demolish your concrete steps, your concrete patio, and your concrete walkways, and you’ll need to hire an excavator and a bulldozer.

If rainwater or melting snow arrives in your yard from just one direction — usually, from uphill — it may be worth the effort to intercept the water with a curtain drain. For more information on curtain drains, see Stormwater Management.

If you need to significantly change the grade around your house, it’s worth the time and effort to install an underground roof. Click here for more information on underground roofs.

Stop and catch your breath

Once you’ve finished all the work described above, your basement may be much dryer than it was before. In fact, you may have solved your problem.

How can you tell? There’s no easy way. You probably have to wait a year and see if anything changes. If your basement is now dry, you can congratulate yourself. If it’s still damp, you have to continue going down the list of possible fixes.

At this point, it makes sense to try a few measures which, although questionable, are relatively inexpensive and therefore worth trying. I’m talking about installing a so-called waterproof coating on the interior of your concrete walls. Brand names for these products include Thoroseal, UGL Drylok, and Xypex.

There’s no doubt that these products work, and they can definitely turn a damp basement wall into a dry one. They just can’t solve every problem. If the hydrostatic pressure on the exterior side of your basement wall is high enough, none of these products will be able to resist the pressure of the entering water. The bottom line is, these products are worth a try.

Perforated drain pipe

If the waterproof coating wasn’t enough to solve your problem, repairs will begin to get expensive. You’ll have to install some perforated drain pipe. You can either excavate down to the footings on the exterior of your house, and install the perforated pipe there, or you can use a concrete saw to cut through your basement slab to create a French drain and sump on the interior side of your basement walls.

If you hired an excavator to adjust the grade around your house, I hope you had this thought: "As long as there is an excavator on site, maybe I should go ahead and excavate down to the footings." Once the footings are exposed, you can evaluate the condition of the footing drains (if any exist) or install new footing drains if needed. Then you can install all of the measures that your original builder forgot: dampproofing compound (or waterproofing compound), a dimple mat or free-draining backfill, and a clay cap.

If porches, walkways, and patios make you cringe at the thought of excavating down to your footings on the exterior of your house, you’ll probably prefer Plan B. To install an interior French drain, you need to cut a trench about 8 inches wide and at least 8 inches deep at the perimeter of your basement slab, near the wall. Put some crushed stone in the trench, and some perforated 4-inch pipe, followed by more crushed stone (see Image #4, below). The pipe can be installed level or slightly sloped, and should lead to a sump installed in a corner of the basement. Then install a sump pump and connect the pump's discharge pipe to a distant drywell, to daylight far from the house, or (if permitted by your local municipality) to your sewer drain. Once the French drain is installed, the concrete slab can be patched (see Image #5, below).

Before patching the concrete, you may want to install a tee in the 4-inch pipe, and connect the tee to a solid 4-inch riser pipe that extends through the roof. This riser pipe, along with a properly sized inline exhaust fan installed in the attic, are the essential components of an active radon mitigation system. Such a system depressurizes the air under a basement slab, and provides an important side benefit: it helps keep your basement dry. For more information, see All About Radon.

Sometimes, of course, you still need a dehumidifier

The work described above is daunting. If your budget doesn’t allow you to adopt some of the expensive remedies described here, you may have to compromise.

Maybe you’ll have to accept a little dampness every April. Maybe you’ll have to give up your dream of a subterranean home theater. And maybe you’ll decide to plug in a dehumidifier after all. The dehumidifier may not solve any problems, but it will lessen the symptoms. For more information on dehumidifiers, see All About Dehumidifiers.

How to tell if your basement wall is too wet to insulate

Maybe you are ready to insulate your basement walls, but you just aren’t sure if they are dry enough for you to proceed. Is there any way to test them?

The traditional test is simple: tape a piece of polyethylene measuring about 12 inches square to your concrete wall or concrete slab. (If you’re testing your walls, it’s good to test them in multiple locations.) After 24 hours, if you see water drops under the plastic, that indicates that your walls are too wet to insulate. If you see water drops on the interior side of the plastic, it means that your indoor air is humid, and the concrete is cold. (Fortunately, that problem won’t prevent you from insulating. After all, a layer of rigid foam will eliminate the cold surface. And the high indoor humidity can be addressed by air sealing your home’s thermal envelope, or — in a pinch — with a dehumidifier.)

For more information on insulating basement walls, see How to Insulate a Basement Wall.

Insulating an existing basement slab

If you intend to finish your basement, and your basement slab lacks sub-slab insulation, you’ll need to install some rigid foam above your slab. Otherwise, the slab will be damp during the summer.

The usual technique is to install 1 or 2 inches of XPSExtruded polystyrene. Highly insulating, water-resistant rigid foam insulation that is widely used above and below grade, such as on exterior walls and underneath concrete floor slabs. In North America, XPS is made with ozone-depleting HCFC-142b. XPS has higher density and R-value and lower vapor permeability than EPS rigid insulation. or EPS foam insulation on top of the existing concrete, followed by a layer of plywood that is fastened through the foam to the concrete with TapCon fasteners. (If you are still worried that your slab may sometimes be damp, you might want to install a layer of dimple mat under the foam.) When installing this layer of foam, it's important to make the installation as airtight as possible, to make it impossible for any humid interior air to contact the concrete. Seal the edges of each piece of foam insulation with a high-quality European tape, with caulk, or with canned spray foam.

If you don’t want to lose the height required for rigid foam, you could try installing a dimpled subfloor product like Delta-FL. (Note that some similar products, notably DRIcore, have mixed reviews from some builders. For more information on this topic, see comment #6 from Mike Guertin, below.) While Delta-FL is worth considering, especially when the basement ceiling is already low, it's not the preferred solution. If you plan to install finish flooring in your basement, it's always better to install rigid foam insulation on the slab than to proceed without any floor insulation.

For more information on insulating existing basement slabs, see:

Is it worth the expense?

Converting a damp basement into dry living space isn't easy or cheap. But if your house is cramped and your lot is small, it may cost less to transform your basement to living space than it would to build an addition.

And if you are building a new house, don't skimp on drainage and waterproofing details. The work will never be easier or cheaper.

Martin Holladay’s previous blog: “Air Sealing an Attic.”

Click here to follow Martin Holladay on Twitter.


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Image Credits:

  1. Quality First Basement Systems
  2. Fine Homebuilding
  3. Rock Solid Waterproofing
  4. Great Lakes Waterproofing
  5. Green Building Advisor

1.
Sep 27, 2013 9:41 AM ET

Nice summary
by Bill Rose

The way I teach this is the following. Want a dry foundation? Design your building and design the excavation. Create a tent roof like the building roof, dig the excavation, and put the tent roof over the excavation. Then wait. Maybe a year, maybe more. After every heavy rain go back to the hole and see if the hole is dry. If, after a long wait the hole remains dry then build your building and put it in the hole. If your hole gets wet, well, why would anyone want to put a perfectly good building in a wet hole? This is the design project I give to students: design a dry hole in the ground. Not easy.


2.
Sep 27, 2013 8:25 PM ET

Holes in crawlspace walls
by Nick Welch

Perfect timing. I've started demolishing my settled patio, and regrading where it was. I have a small 4x16 all-concrete crawlspace connected to my basement and a little bit of water trickles in during heavy rain, through these mysterious holes at the bottoms of the walls. I haven't been able to find anything about them on the internet, so I think some misguided previous owner may have drilled them in an attempt to let the accumulated water out? I hope that once I'm done regrading, the ground will remain dry enough that the holes will no longer leak water into the crawlspace. Should I then plug them up? Do they serve some other purpose I'm not aware of? The crawlspace has the same wood form imprints as the rest of the foundation so I'm quite sure it's not CMU. The home is from 1950 in Portland OR.


3.
Sep 28, 2013 6:05 AM ET

Response to Nick Welch
by Martin Holladay

Nick,
It's hard to know exactly what the holes are for. You haven't described the shape or size of the holes, or how many there are. But ultimately it doesn't really matter, because there is no reason to have holes in your crawl space walls. Feel free to plug the holes with concrete, mortar, or canned spray foam.


4.
Oct 2, 2013 6:37 PM ET

Don't connect the outside to the inside
by Andrew Marani

Good article. I am a commercial contractor and live in 100 plus year old community. I have helped several neighbors fix their leaking basements just by directing the downspout water away from the house and cleaning/repairing gutters. Almost always solves the issue in our area.

I am currently building a "pretty good" house and was very surprised when the residential foundation contractor started to connect the outside drain tile to the interior drain tile using pipes run under the footing. When I asked him why, he said "we always do that". My comment back was roughly why did I spend all that money on waterproofing and drainage board to keep the water out when you are installing pipe to let it in? Followed by "Not on my house!" and had them pull the connecting pipes out. The county inspector asked where those connecting pipes were and after I explained that I didn't want them and was daylighting the exterior drain, he agreed to leave them out, but I don't think he was happy. In 20 plus years of commercial construction I have never connected the exterior drain tile to the interior drain tile. The idea is very strange.

I have learned while building my house that residential contractors have some very different construction techniques than commercial. Like the amazing conversation I had with the excavation contractor as he explained why it's better not to tamp the backfill to 95% or, basically, at all, even under slabs. Another "Not on my house!" moment. There have been others and I'm sure there will be more.

Andrew


5.
Oct 3, 2013 7:28 AM ET

Edited Oct 3, 2013 7:32 AM ET.

Response to Andrew Marani
by Martin Holladay

Andrew,
I don't agree with the logic you use to argue that there should be no drainage pipe across the footings. If the water table rises to the level of the bottom of your footing drains, you are going to have wet soil under your basement slab, with or without a pipe connecting the interior with the exterior. Underground water moves sideways, with or without the pipe. The purpose of the pipe is to help drain the water quickly.

What you want is plenty of free-draining material under the slab to encourage any water to move to the footing drain. That's what the pipe is for. Since you have rigid foam and polyethylene above the crushed stone, the presence of liquid water at the crushed stone layer will not make your slab damp.

Many builders install a continuous layer of crushed stone that underlies their footings as well as the slab. This is the standard method for so-called Permanent Wood Foundations, and it is a method that is routinely used for slabs on grade and frost-protected shallow foundations as well. If you are building your foundation on a continuous layer of crushed stone, you will have opportunities for water to move sideways through this layer. What keeps the layer dry is your perforated pipe, connected to a drain.

Omitting the pipe through the footing is a placebo measure. It doesn't prevent water from moving sideways under your slab; it just reduces your drainage opportunities.

I am attaching two photos showing sites where the footings are installed on a continuous layer of crushed stone.
.

Footing forms on crushed stone.jpg Permanent wood foundation.jpg


6.
Oct 3, 2013 7:56 AM ET

Edited Oct 3, 2013 7:58 AM ET.

Delta-FL - Good, .DRIcore - not so good
by Mike Guertin

When DRIcore first came out I thought it was a great idea and used it on several basement projects until the problems started - some big, some small. Panel edges swelled and the required 1/4 in. perimeter space was not enough to prevent buckling. My guess is that because the dimple mat backing on each DRIcore panel doesn't seal to the adjacent 4 panels, there can be enough moisture absorbed by the wood over time for irreversible expansion to occur.

Delta-FL is a separate sheet that gets taped at joints and sealed at the perimeter. No problems in basements with Delta or other full-coverage dimple mat systems.


7.
Oct 3, 2013 8:49 AM ET

Response to Mike Guertin
by Martin Holladay

Mike,
Thanks very much for sharing your job-site experience; I have edited my article to reflect your comments.

This is a good opportunity to warn remodeling contractors that any contractor who takes on a basement remodeling project is taking on a significant amount of liability. If you are an experienced professional with good insurance coverage, such jobs may make sense, and may even be highly profitable. However, there are more uncertainties with below-grade work than above-grade work -- a fact that contractors should keep in mind when setting their prices.


8.
Oct 10, 2013 9:23 AM ET

Martin, I don't think we are
by Andrew Marani

Martin,
I don't think we are gong to agree on connecting the outside/inside. Water does move horizontally, but we install drainage board against the exterior waterproofing to reduce hydraulic pressure against the waterproofing. This creates a nearly perfect vertical drain to allow surface and below surface rain water down to the exterior footing drain and from there into the house.

Daylighting the exterior drain interrupts the horizontal movement of water so it does not flow under the footing. Most houses in our area are built with basements and the footings are set on virgin soil, with no drainage under the footing. The water will take the easiest path, which would be the exterior drain tile to daylight.

Where there is no possibility of daylighting the exterior drain tile, the connection you recommend allows the sump pump to remove the excess water, so I see the usefulness in that situation. However, my personal opinion is that many residential builders use the connection as a cheaper (and less effective) solution. It cost more to run a 50' or 100' trench to daylight the exterior drain tile. The sump pump works fine most of the time, until there is a large storm dumping a lot of rain and causing a power outage.

Andrew


9.
Oct 10, 2013 9:32 AM ET

Response to Andrew Marani
by Martin Holladay

Andrew,
I certainly agree with you that draining to daylight is far more dependable, and therefore preferred, to draining to a sump pump.

That is a separate issue, however, from the question we are discussing: whether it makes sense to install a drain pipe through the footing to connect the crushed stone on the exterior side of the footing with the crushed stone on the interior side of the footing.

Clearly, you remain unconvinced of my recommendation, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


10.
Oct 18, 2013 6:21 PM ET

Issues with dimple panels
by Matt Klein

I believe the recommendation was to use a dimple panel on the outside of the foundation to provide drainage or secondarily crushed stone. I have issues with the dimple panels. I am finding that when dirt is backfilled around the foundation and panels, the dirt grabs the panels as it settles and pulls the panels downward. In many cases, the downward forces is enough to pulle the panels out of the termination bars along the top of the panels. That leaves an opening for water to get between the panels and foundaiton.

Some will likely say that the panels were installed properly. In one case with which I am very familiar, the installation instructions were followed exactly, including use of the proper fasteners, spacing of fasteners, terminating the panels, etc. Again, as the soil settled, it grabbed on the panels and pulled them downward. I have attached a couple of photos.

IMG_7087.JPG IMG_7091.JPG


11.
Oct 19, 2013 5:59 AM ET

Response to Matt Klein
by Martin Holladay

Matt,
I don't have a lot of experience installing dimple panels, so I can't comment on whether the problem you describe is common. But even if a dimple panel is displaced downward one or two inches, as shown in the photo, I can't imagine that it would matter very much. The dimple panel would still be covering 99% of the area that was intended, and it would still work.


12.
Nov 25, 2014 12:56 PM ET

Perforated drain pipe replacement?
by Rostyslav Hermanyuk

It seems that perforated drain pipe covered in gravel is a standard advice. I would suggest a (possibly) better alternative -- stripdrains, like the one made by Terrafix. The main difference is the amount of dirt one have to excavate and amount of gravel one needs to fill the trench (stripdrain does not need the gravel). 8x8 inch trench along 150 feet long basement wall means 67 cu.f of dirt (@78 lb/cu.f = 5200 lbs) and the same amount of gravel( 5000 lbs).


13.
Dec 20, 2015 9:54 PM ET

testing wet walls with polyethylene
by Erich Riesenberg

I was confused about the purpose of testing the wet walls with polyethylene (thought it might be for newly poured concrete), and found this:

http://www.cmhc.ca/en/inpr/su/regrgu/regrgu_007.cfm

A Simple Test for Capillary Moisture Problems

To find out if a foundation floor or wall is wicking moisture into the house, try this test: attach a square of polyethylene film (300 x 300 mm) to a dry section of wall or floor and seal the edges with tape. Leave it for a day or two. If moisture appears on the underside of the sheet, it is migrating through the concrete. This test is not exact but can usually reveal a problem if it exists.

This test is worthwhile even if there are no reported and no visible signs of moisture before undertaking a basement finishing project. Moisture may have been evaporating through the floor and walls without obvious signs. If undetected, this may become a serious problem after the surfaces have been covered with new finishes that might trap the moisture and cause it to accumulate to the point where it becomes a problem.


14.
Dec 21, 2015 7:05 AM ET

Response to Erich Riesenberg
by Martin Holladay

Erich,
If you read the article on this page -- the page where you posted your comment -- you'll notice that I recommend the same test as the one you refer to. My advice can be found under the heading, "How to tell if your basement wall is too wet to insulate."


15.
Dec 24, 2015 11:55 AM ET

Moisture Stop
by Erich Riesenberg

Yes, I saw you recommended the test, I just wasn't sure why, so went looking before asking the question, and posted the answer I found.

I have a dry basement and plan to insulate it. I came across a Rustoleum product called Moisture Stop which claims to prevent water (and radon). The active ingredient is Sodium Silicate. (related product called Fortifying Sealer)

Does it seem like a reasonable step to take as a precaution? I think it can also be coated with a waterproof paint. Sold at Menards and HD.

Can't post a link due to the spam filter, attached the MSDS.

Thanks and happy holiday. Strangely warm in midwest, mid-50s.

AttachmentSize
RockSolid Moisture Stop 335.05 KB


16.
Dec 24, 2015 12:26 PM ET

Response to Erich Riesenberg
by Martin Holladay

Erich,
Once again, I addressed your question in the article. I wrote, "At this point, it makes sense to try a few measures which, although questionable, are relatively inexpensive and therefore worth trying. I’m talking about installing a so-called waterproof coating on the interior of your concrete walls. Brand names for these products include Thoroseal, UGL Drylok, and Xypex.

"There’s no doubt that these products work, and they can definitely turn a damp basement wall into a dry one. They just can’t solve every problem. If the hydrostatic pressure on the exterior side of your basement wall is high enough, none of these products will be able to resist the pressure of the entering water. The bottom line is, these products are worth a try."


17.
Dec 25, 2015 8:06 PM ET

Once again, I did see the
by Erich Riesenberg

Once again, I did see the generic reference to waterproofing products.

I will depend on the sales literature.

Happy holiday!


18.
Feb 11, 2016 5:27 AM ET

Quesion
by Alex Larson

Howdy. I've got a question for you, cause i'm aJ ohnny-come-lately: has anybody used liquid rubber for waterproofing basement walls, e.g. these waterproofing products http://liquidrubber.ca/ ?


19.
Feb 11, 2016 7:04 AM ET

Response to Alex Larson
by Martin Holladay

Alex,
As I noted in the article, several coating products are sold for use on the interior side of basement walls. These products include Thoroseal, UGL Drylok, and Xypex.

The product you mention is a roofing product. I see no mention on the manufacturer's web site of the use of this product on basement walls. For that reason alone, I wouldn't use it.


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