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How to Insulate a Basement Wall

If you want to avoid moisture problems and mold, choose your insulation materials carefully

Posted on Jun 29 2012 by Martin Holladay

Here at GBAGreenBuildingAdvisor.com, we regularly receive questions from readers about the best way to insulate a basement wall. Since these questions pop up frequently, it’s time to pull together as much information as possible on this topic.

In this article, I’ll try to explain everything you always wanted to know about insulating basement walls.

Is it worth insulating a basement wall?

If you live in Climate Zone 3 or anywhere colder, it’s cost-effective and wise to install basement wall insulation. This advice applies to those who live in most of New Mexico and most of Alabama, as well as all of Oklahoma, Arkansas, and South Carolina, and anywhere colder than these states. (Click here to see a climate zone map.)

Canadian researchers who studied basement insulation methods and costs in five Canadian locations (Toronto, Ottawa, Halifax, Edmonton and Victoria) concluded that “for all types and sizes of basements assessed in this study, the lowest total life-cycle cost was associated with basements insulated internally, full-height to a nominal level of R-20.”

How much money will basement insulation save you annually? According to a report published by the U.S. Department of Energy, the annual savings attributable to R-20 basement insulation in a 1,500-square-foot home ranged from $280 per year in Washington, DC to $390 per year in Buffalo, New York, assuming that natural gas costs $0.72/thermUnit of heat equal to 100,000 British thermal units (Btus); commonly used for natural gas.. (However, energy consultant Michael Blasnik cites two Minnesota studies that show lower levels of savings. See his 6/29/12 comments posted below.)

What do building codes require?

The 2012 International Residential Code requires basement insulation in Climate Zones 3 and higher. Here are the minimum code requirements for basement wall insulation — assuming that you are insulating with foam, not fiberglass batts:

  • Climate Zone 3: R-5
  • Climate Zone 4 (except Marine Zone 4): R-10
  • Marine Zone 4 and Climate Zones 5, 6, 7, and 8: R-15.

Should I insulate the wall on the inside or the outside?

I used to believe that the best location for basement wall insulation was on the exterior. In recent years, however, I’ve decided that interior basement insulation makes a lot of sense.

However, there are valid reasons for both approaches, and either way can work fine. So if you prefer one approach, don’t hesitate to use it.

Here are the advantages of exterior basement insulation:

  • Exterior insulation keeps the concrete within the home’s thermal envelope; this increases the amount of interior thermal massHeavy, high-heat-capacity material that can absorb and store a significant amount of heat; used in passive solar heating to keep the house warm at night. and reduces the likelihood of temperature swings if heating and cooling equipment stops working. (However, it’s worth pointing out that the advantages of interior thermal mass are often exaggerated.)
  • Exterior insulation protects the dampproofing or waterproofing layer from damage during backfilling.
  • Insulating on the exterior allows a builder to install an uninterrupted layer of rigid foam from the foundation footing to the rafters. While this approach isn’t required — you don’t have to insulate above-grade walls with exterior foam if you don’t want to — many builders like it.
  • Exterior insulation provides more interior space in your basement than interior insulation.
  • It’s easier to insulate and air-seal the rim joist area with exterior insulation than with interior insulation.
  • If you insulate on the exterior, you avoid the expense of interior studs and drywall.
  • Exterior insulation leaves the interior of the concrete wall exposed (assuming the basement is unfinished) so that the concrete can be inspected at any time for cracks.

Here are the advantages of interior basement insulation:

  • The insulation work integrates more smoothly with the construction schedule, since it happens after the building is dried in rather than when the excavation contractor is eager to backfill the foundation.
  • It’s easier to provide an uninterrupted connection between the below-slab insulation and the wall insulation when the insulation is on the interior. If you install the wall insulation on the exterior, the footing will usually interrupt insulation continuity. (For more information on this issue, see Foam Under Footings.)
  • If you insulate on the interior, you avoid the hassle of figuring out how to protect the above-grade portion of the exterior basement insulation.
  • If you plan to install brick veneer on your above-grade walls, interior basement insulation makes more sense than exterior insulation. (For more information on the incompatibility of brick veneer with exterior basement insulation, see Image #4, below.)

Briefly, how are basement walls insulated on the exterior?

After the basement wall has been protected with a dampproofing or a waterproofing system, insulation is installed from the top of the footing to somewhere near the top of the rim joist. Acceptable insulation materials include extruded polystyrene (XPSExtruded polystyrene. Highly insulating, water-resistant rigid foam insulation that is widely used above and below grade, such as on exterior walls and underneath concrete floor slabs. In North America, XPS is made with ozone-depleting HCFC-142b. XPS has higher density and R-value and lower vapor permeability than EPS rigid insulation.), expanded polystyrene (EPS), closed-cell spray polyurethane foam, or mineral wool. Polyisocyanurate insulation should not be used because it can absorb water.

Below-grade insulation does not need to be attached to the concrete; it is held in place by the backfill. The best backfill material is a fast-draining granular material like gravel or crushed stone with a thin cap of soil or clay.

Above-grade insulation may or may not need to be attached to the concrete — fastening methods include foam-compatible adhesive, TapCons with washers, and specialty fasteners like Hilti IDP fasteners or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners — depending on the height of the exposed foam and the method used to protect it.

Some builders cantilever their 2x6 perimeter walls so that the basement insulation isn't proud of the siding. If the basement insulation ends up proud of the siding, you'll have to protect the top of the basement insulation with metal flashing. The top of the flashing needs to include a vertical leg that extends upward and is lapped by the housewrap; the flashing should be sloped, and the bottom of the flashing needs to terminate in a drip leg that extends beyond the insulation and the insulation protection materials.

If I insulate on the outside, how should I protect the above-grade foam?

The above-grade portions of all types of exterior insulation must be protected from physical abuse and sunlight. Among the products than can be used for this purpose are the following:

For more information on this topic, see How to Finish Exterior Foundation Insulation.

Briefly, how are basement walls insulated on the interior?

The best way to insulate a basement wall on the interior is with foam insulation that is adhered or attached directly to the concrete. Any of the following insulation materials are acceptable for this purpose: closed-cell spray polyurethane foam, XPS, EPS, or polyisocyanurate.

Rigid foam can be adhered to concrete with foam-compatible adhesive or can be attached with special fasteners like Hilti IDP fasteners or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners. (For more information on using Hilti IDP fasteners to attach rigid foam to a basement wall, see Marc Rosenbaum’s article, Basement Insulation — Part 2. For more information on Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners, see New Green Building Products — June 2013.) To prevent interior air from reaching the cold concrete, make sure to seal the perimeter of each piece of rigid foam with adhesive, caulk, a high-quality European tape, or canned spray foam.

Building codes require most types of foam insulation to be protected by a layer of gypsum drywall. Many builders put up a 2x4 wall on the interior of the foam insulation; the studs provide a convenient wiring chase and make drywall installation simple. (If you frame up a 2x4 wall, don't forget to install fire blocking at the top of the wall. For more information on fire blocking, see Fire-Blocking Basics.)

One brand of rigid foam, Dow Thermax polyisocyanurate, meets code requirements for a thermal barrier and can therefore be left exposed in a crawl space (and in some jurisdictions, in a basement) without the need for a layer of gypsum drywall. If your basement doesn’t need wiring, studs, and drywall, then Thermax is probably the brand of insulation to use. (However, be sure to check with your local building official before going this route.)

If you plan to insulate your basement walls with spray foam, the best approach is to frame your 2x4 walls before the foam is sprayed, leaving a gap of 1 to 2 inches between the back of the studs and the concrete wall. The gap will later be filled with spray foam.

For information on insulating rim joists, see Insulating Rim Joists.

If you live in an area where termites are a problem, your local building code may require that you leave a 3-inch-high "inspection strip" of bare concrete near the top of your basement wall. To find out what details are required in your area, talk to your local building official.

Can I insulate on the interior with fiberglass batts, mineral wool batts, or cellulose?

No. Fiberglass batts, mineral wool batts, and cellulose are air-permeable. When this type of insulation is installed in contact with concrete, the moisture in the interior air condenses against the cold concrete surface, leading to mold and rot. That’s why I advise builders that fiberglass batts, mineral wool insulation, and cellulose should never be installed against a basement wall.

The risk of moisture problems is reduced if the concrete is first covered with a continuous layer of rigid foam or closed-cell spray foam. If that is done, some builders then install a 2x4 wall on the interior side of the foam insulation and fill the stud bays with fiberglass batts. This approach is less risky than installing fiberglass directly against the concrete. However, I don’t think that fiberglass batts belong in a basement. My advice: if you want a higher R-valueMeasure of resistance to heat flow; the higher the R-value, the lower the heat loss. The inverse of U-factor. , just install thicker rigid foam, and leave the stud bays empty.

Does interior basement insulation need to be vapor-permeable?

No. The idea that a damp concrete wall should be able to dry towards the interior — in other words, that any insulation on the interior of a basement wall should be vapor-permeable — is mistaken. In fact, you don’t want to encourage any moisture to enter your home. Your concrete wall can stay damp for a century; that dampness won’t hurt the concrete.

For more information on this topic, see Joe Lstiburek Discusses Basement Insulation and Vapor Retarders.

Should I include a polyethylene vapor barrier?

No. Basement wall systems should never include any polyethylene. You don’t want poly between the concrete and the insulation; nor do you want poly between gypsum drywall and the insulation. You don’t want poly anywhere.

Paul Ellringer, an energy and mold consultant in Saint Paul, Minnesota, has a collection of slides showing moldy basement insulation. In most cases, these basement walls were insulated with fiberglass batts, and included two layers of polyethylene — one on each side of the studs. Ellringer calls this a “diaper wall,” and reports that most of them are a mess. “Fibrous insulation and poly are inherently problematic, and should not be used in below-grade walls,” says Ellringer. “Sometimes when you open it up, the fiberglass is soaking wet. If the house is two to four years old, the studs are often beginning to rot.”

What about ICFs or the ThermoMass system?

If you build a new basement with insulated concrete forms (ICFs) or the ThermoMass system, your wall already includes insulation, so you don’t need to add any more.

Both approaches work. The main disadvantage of these systems is their high cost compared to conventional poured concrete walls.

ICFs have a core of concrete sandwiched between two layers of rigid foam. ThermoMass walls have a core of rigid foam sandwiched between two layers of concrete. It seems to me that the ThermoMass sandwich makes much more sense than the ICF sandwich: since foam is more fragile than concrete, it makes more sense to protect the fragile layer with concrete than to put the fragile material on the outside of the sandwich.

If you decide to use either ICFs or the ThermoMass system, pay close attention to the wall’s R-value. Many ICF and ThermoMass walls have relatively low R-values. If you’re going to buy such an expensive wall system, be sure to specify thick foam.

What do I need to know if I am installing insulation on an existing house?

If you want to insulate an existing basement, you’ll probably be working from the interior. Before installing a layer of foam insulation on an existing wall, the first step is to verify that the basement wall doesn’t have a water-entry problem.

Diagnosing and fixing water-entry problems in existing basements is a big topic in its own right, and is beyond the scope of this article. Suffice it to say that if your basement walls get wet every spring or every time you get a heavy rain, the walls should not be insulated until the water-entry problem is solved.

Among the possible solutions to this problem:

  • Adjusting the grade around your house so that the soil slopes away from the building on all four sides;
  • Installing roof gutters connected to conductor pipes that convey the roof water away from the foundation;
  • Excavating the exterior of your foundation and installing new footing drains leading to daylight;
  • Installing an interior French drain around the perimeter of your basement and connecting the drain to a sump equipped with a sump pump; and
  • Installing a layer of dimple mat against the basement walls before insulating.

For more information on these issues, see Fixing a Wet Basement.

If your basement has stone-and-mortar walls, you can’t insulate the walls with rigid foam. The only type of insulation that makes sense for stone-and-mortar walls is closed-cell spray polyurethane foam.

If your basement has poured concrete or concrete-block walls, you can proceed with the same methods used for new construction — as long as you’re sure that the walls don’t have a water-entry problem.

What about crawl space walls?

Crawl space walls should be insulated with the same methods used for basement walls. For more information on insulating a sealed crawl space, see Building an Unvented Crawl Space.

Basement wall insulation is a cost-effective measure

Remember: if you live in Climate Zone 3 or anywhere colder, installing basement wall insulation is almost always cost-effective. Performing this work will lower your energy bills, and will also provide an important side benefit: insulated walls are less susceptible to condensation and mold.

That means that insulated basements stay dryer and smell better than uninsulated basements.

Last week’s blog: “Understanding Energy Units.”

Click here to follow Martin Holladay on Twitter.


Tags: , , , , , , ,

Image Credits:

  1. Fine Homebuilding
  2. Thermomass
  3. Building Science Corporation
  4. Journal of Light Construction

151.
Apr 21, 2016 3:59 PM ET

Go rigid, not spray
by Dana Dorsett

At 3" closed cell foam would have to be applied in two lifts, with a curing period between them.

I'm not sure what the inch of foam sprayed onto EPS foam is buying you? (in option 1, part 3)

An inch of EPS with an R13 studwall meets code-min performance.

If you furred out the pony wall stud edges to make them flush with the foundation and installed cheap fluff in those furred-out stud bays (it compressed low density R30 or whatever, as long as it's full), then installed an inch of EPS floor to ceiling, seams taped, edges sealed, you can then install a 2x4 studwall on the interior of that.

Put an inch of EPS under the bottom plate of the stud as a capillary break & dew point control, no need for pressure treated. The pony wall portion would already be well over code min, but you'd still need to stuff the studwall with fiber where the concrete starts (but full height is also fine). Unfaced R15s would with margin, and would still be able to dry out after a flood. If the basement is always dry and flood risk low,kraft faced R13s would be fine.

If you left the pony walls empty you'd need at least R13 + 5 to meet code on your interior studwall which means 1.5" EPS instead of 1".


152.
Apr 21, 2016 4:14 PM ET

Edited Apr 21, 2016 4:38 PM ET.

Reply to Dana
by Greg Volland

My thinking about using the closed cell spray foam over EPS is cost and time savings. The reason I was leaning towards some level of SPF is that it would help seal the space and irregular cavities/gaps and would be faster than EPS + caulking.

You kind of lost me with your suggestions... As my photo shows, I have faced R-19 in the pony walls already. Are you saying that if I furred out those walls to make them flush with the concrete foundation wall (about an inch), I'd have to put "fluff" in that small cavity between the EPS and the R-19? Not sure how I'd even do that..

I'm open to that idea of doing EPS floor to ceiling as you suggest and then the 2x4 walls inset. If I did that, would I need to insulate the interior 2x4 wall?

I'm also getting a bit confused as to why some commentators at GBA are saying SPF is great and now you're advocating for no SPF and rigid only. Please enlighten me.

Greg


153.
Apr 21, 2016 4:26 PM ET

Response to Greg Volland
by Martin Holladay

Greg,
Q. "I'm also getting a bit confused as to why some commentators at GBA are saying SPF is great and now you're advocating for no SPF and rigid only. Please enlighten me."

A. You'll hear many voices (and many opinions) on GBA. Here's my opinion: spray foam insulation is good for certain applications, but since most brands of closed-cell spray foam are expensive and use a blowing agent with a high global warming potential, it's best to use other insulation materials if these other materials work well. Save the spray foam for applications where it's the only option (like insulating a rubble-stone foundation wall, or certain air sealing tasks).


154.
Apr 21, 2016 4:41 PM ET

Reply to Martin Holladay
by Greg Volland

I understand. What about the other part of my reply to Dana:

"As my photo shows, I have faced R-19 in the pony walls already. Are you saying that if I furred out those walls to make them flush with the concrete foundation wall (about an inch), I'd have to put "fluff" in that small cavity between the EPS and the R-19? Not sure how I'd even do that.

I'm open to that idea of doing EPS floor to ceiling as you suggest and then the 2x4 walls inset. If I did that, would I need to insulate the interior 2x4 wall?"

Thanks,

Greg


155.
Apr 21, 2016 5:04 PM ET

Edited Apr 21, 2016 5:05 PM ET.

Response to Greg Volland
by Martin Holladay

Greg,
Most of these decisions are up to you, not me or Dana.

If you want to make the interior finish material (probably drywall) of the lower concrete wall and the upper framed wall co-planar, you can. Or, if you prefer to have a shelf dividing the two walls, you can have that instead.

If you want to install EPS on the interior side of the insulated stud wall, you can. Or you can omit it -- as long as you meet minimum code requirements. The final R-value of these wall assemblies is up to you.


156.
Apr 21, 2016 5:30 PM ET

Reply to Martin Holladay
by Greg Volland

Martin:

I am planning to finish the inset 2x4 stud wall with drywall and want a continuous wall depth (no shelf).

What I am trying to understand is how best to insulate the exposed concrete foundation wall to avoid moisture/condensation issues. I have little concern for flooding, etc.

My specific question is this: if I furred our the existing foundation pony walls to be flush with the concrete foundation walls, and then ran EPS from floor to ceiling as Dana suggested, is it ok to have a 1 inch "void" between the EPS rigid foam and the existing R-19 that is in the current 2x6 pony walls atop the foundation wall?

Greg


157.
Apr 21, 2016 6:30 PM ET

Edited Apr 21, 2016 6:57 PM ET.

Apology to Greg Volland
by Dean McCracken

Greg-
My cautions regarding spray foam were based on a misunderstanding of what you propose. Please disregard them. Martin and Dana have thus far refrained from stating the obvious that "some people who post don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored." Their restraint is commendable. Listen to them, not to me!


158.
Apr 22, 2016 5:01 AM ET

Response to Greg Volland
by Martin Holladay

Greg,
Q. "Is it OK to have a 1 inch void between the EPS rigid foam and the existing R-19 that is in the current 2x6 pony walls atop the foundation wall?"

A. It would be best to fill this void with something -- either a continuous layer of 1-inch EPS, or compressed fiberglass (perhaps a half thickness of R-13 batt, compressed).


159.
Apr 22, 2016 3:14 PM ET

Response to Martin and Dana
by Greg Volland

Thank you again for you insights. After closer inspection of the foundation wall and existing 2x6 exterior wall, I am having second thoughts about try to fur out the difference and fill the void because there are several obstacles in the way. What if I use attached plan? It calls for me to adhere 1 or 1 1/2 EPS to the concrete only (face and top, sealing the joints). Then build my new 2x4 wall inset. Would it be ok to then use R-13 Faced fiberglass on that 2x4 wall (ease of install and accessible)?

I think Dana was saying this would be an ok plan. Can you confirm?

Thanks! Hope to get going this weekend!

Greg

IMG_4547.JPG


160.
Apr 22, 2016 4:29 PM ET

Avoid the void!
by Dana Dorsett

As drawn you have no back-side air barrier to the 2x4 R13s from the top of the EPS on up, and nothing but air between the R13 and the facers of the R19s. This is a classic thermal bypass channel (and too often, a rodent-run).

How you deal with it depends on the depth of the ledge. If it's a fairly consistent inch, double layering the EPS and going floor to ceiling with the interior-side sheet would be good, since both layers can be taped air tight. If it's 1.5" or 2", same thing. If more than 2" cutting the ledge-top EPS at the edge and stacking low density batts, then going floor to ceiling with the 1" EPS, compressing the batts in place with the studwall framing would stuff the void with a mid-density more air retardent fiber layer, and allow you to detail the foam as an air barrier. If the ledge is too inconsistent in depth to fill with EPS and under 2" you can use split 19s, which are very compressible down to about an inch or less, but would still be a reasonable density at 2". But the key is to have no voids, which means lower infiltration, no unimpeded thermal bypass, and no unimpeded convective routes around insulating layers.

As drawn the plywood subfloor and floor EPS stops at the bottom plate of the studwall, and the bottom plate is in contact with the slab. It's better if the plywood & floor EPS extend all the way to the wall EPS, which puts a thermal and capillary break between the slab and all of the wood (including the bottom plate) and exposes more bottom plate for attaching the drywall & kick board trim.


161.
Apr 22, 2016 5:30 PM ET

Reply to Dana
by Greg Volland

Dana:

Two thoughts based on your reply:

1) There is a 3 inch drain line on the wall that runs the length of the space (see photo). I can move it out from the wall enough to put the EPS on the existing studs + foundation wall in a continuous floor to ceiling application, but I would still need to bring out the new 2x4 wall far enough from that to account for the drain line. Is that ok in your view? Any suggestions? Should I just skip insulation in the new 2x4 walls?

2) Regarding the floor/stud walls, a few of the stud walls are already in place and the bottom plates are already down (PT + sill sealer roll foam) so, unfortunately the EPS is not going under those areas... I will see the way you suggest is done for the other areas.

3) there are a few posts on concrete footings in the space and the plan is to build 2x4 walls around them to "box them in". My question: should the slab areas within those "boxes" also be covered by the EPS? I assume so...

Greg

IMG_3917a.jpg


162.
Apr 29, 2016 1:46 AM ET

Hello???
by Greg Volland

Where did everyone go?!


163.
Apr 29, 2016 4:55 AM ET

Response to Greg Volland
by Martin Holladay

Greg,
1. You'll get more responses to your questions if you post them on GBA's Q&A page. Here is the link:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/qa

Lots of readers visit the Q&A page daily. Far fewer readers are likely to notice Comment #161 on a 4-year-old article. (In general, the comment section under our articles is used to comment on the article itself -- not so much to post a question about a renovation problem. But of course we try to help people out, wherever the questions are posted.)

2. You've posted 9 questions in a row here, and you've gotten detailed technical answers to all but the last posting. Sometimes donor fatigue sets in. But we'll do our best to help you.

3. In response to your latest questions: Yes, it's OK to move the drain pipe and the 2x4 wall. And yes, you should install EPS against the slab before you box in anything that you intend to box in.


164.
Apr 29, 2016 12:35 PM ET

Reply to Martin Holladay
by Greg Volland

Understood. Thanks Martin!


165.
Jan 13, 2017 9:32 AM ET

wet basement walls
by kim dolce

We are about to address the basement in the renovation of an 1860's carriage house in mid-coast Maine (zone 6). The building sits almost directly on a ledge at the front, jutting out about 15' into the basement and hugs one side of the building then opens up to about 6' of headroom towards the back. The foundation walls are stone and mortar closer to the ledge and change to brick as the basement opens up. The floor is dirt and after a decent rain or good thaw we have water running freely from the ledge and through at least one area of the brick.

We intend to address the water as best we can with French drains (exterior) and gutters, but the ledge guarantees we won't be entirely successful. We discovered a drain set in the basement floor, and though no sump pump exists water does seem to flow toward the drain and I don't anticipate the problem of standing water, just moisture passing through. We only intend to use the basement for storage of things like crates and tools, but want it as dry as possible.

We've had a parade of people through to quote the job and almost to a man everyone said we should spread gravel then poly sheeting (anything from 6-20mil depending on quote) and pour a rat slab which would provide a place for water to be channeled under the slab to the existing drain. They then all recommended 2"-3" of cc spray foam on the walls.

It all seemed to make sense, but I thought I'd come back to GBA one more time to make sure we weren't missing anything. Your article seems to point to one flaw in this plan, it doesn't seem to address our wet walls. Is the application of a dimpled membrane the answer? I'm not turning up much in a search, but is something like Superseal what I should be looking for? Also, did I also noticed the mention of an air space between the membrane and the insulation? If so, what will the spray foam adhere to?

Thank you and by all means, let me know if you see anything else we're missing.
Kim


166.
Jan 13, 2017 9:42 AM ET

Resonse to Kim Dolce
by Martin Holladay

Kim,
1. If I were you, I would want to know where the floor drain leads. Does it run to daylight? If not, where does it go? How will you prevent it from clogging in the future if you don't know where it terminates?

2. The standard solution in a case like yours is to install dimple mat on the wall before you spray the closed-cell spray foam. The dimple mat should extend down to the crushed stone layer under the rat slab so that any water that trickles down the wall will have free access to the crushed stone layer.


167.
Jan 13, 2017 10:13 AM ET

Resonse to Kim Dolce
by Charlie Sullivan

Kim,

If you post your question in the Q&A section rather than in the comments of an article like this, I think you'll get more people seeing it and responding to it. Martin's comments are usually the most thorough and helpful--the rest of us just function like a Greek chorus to help emphasize what he says. But sometimes what we say is useful.

My suggestion is to specify Lapolla 4G spray foam, because the standard closed-cell spray foams us a blowing agent that has a huge global warming impact (~1000 times worse than CO2).


168.
Jan 13, 2017 10:55 AM ET

Martin, We do plan to put a
by kim dolce

Martin,
We do plan to put a hose in that drain to see if we can figure out where it goes. There's a retaining wall at the back of our property and my money has been on that. Funny, until this moment it hadn't dawned on me to examine the retaining wall for a gusher during a heavy rain. Thanks!
kim


169.
Jan 13, 2017 10:57 AM ET

Charlie, Thanks for the tip.
by kim dolce

Charlie,
Thanks for the tip. I usually spend my time on the articles and blogs so don't tend to think of the Q&A.
kim


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