QA-spotlightheader image
0 Helpful?

Dealing With Ductwork in an Unconditioned Attic

What’s a good solution for a 1960s brick ranch house that has the furnace and ductwork installed in the attic?

Posted on Jun 12 2017 by Scott Gibson

Ted has more than a few cobwebs in his attic. The unconditioned space also houses his HVAC(Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning). Collectively, the mechanical systems that heat, ventilate, and cool a building. system.

The 1,800-square-foot brick ranch in Climate Zone 4 dates from the 1960s, but the previous owner installed both a furnace and ductwork in the attic just four years ago. Ted also has inherited a powered attic ventilator. Although both the attic floor and the ductwork are insulated, Ted recognizes the situation isn't ideal.

Summer hasn't even arrived, he notes in a post at GBA's Q&A forum, and when the temperature outside climbs to more than 95°F, the temperature in the attic tops 120°F. That has kept the ventilator working, but Ted surmises the high temperatures are reducing the efficiency of his air conditioning equipment.

"Should I turn off the ventilator so it won't suck cool air from the conditioned area?" Ted asks. "Should I put more insulation material on top of the attic floor and the ductwork? Will a radiant barrier under the rafters help?"

Those are the questions to get this Q&A Spotlight rolling.

Add more insulation

Dana Dorsett would have Ted get the level of insulation much closer to the R-49 recommended in the International Residential Code.

"In a DOEUnited States Department of Energy. Climate Zone 7 (not to be confused with a USDA plant hardiness zone 7) a mere 8 inches of fluff is woefully inadequate," Dorsett says. "IRCInternational Residential Code. The one- and two-family dwelling model building code copyrighted by the International Code Council. The IRC is meant to be a stand-alone code compatible with the three national building codes—the Building Officials and Code Administrators (BOCA) National code, the Southern Building Code Congress International (SBCCI) code and the International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO) code. code-minimum for zone 7 is R-49, and you have barely half that. Air sealing all the ducts and air handler connections and seams, and air sealing all the duct boots to the ceiling gypsum (and any other penetrations) is a critical first step prior to adding any insulation."

(As it turns out, Ted initially confused the two climate zone designations. His house is located in DOE Climate Zone 4, not Zone 7 as he had originally indicated. But the code recommendation for attic insulation is the same — it's R-49 in both in Zone 4 and Zone 7.)

Dorsett suggests that a low-eLow-emissivity coating. Very thin metallic coating on glass or plastic window glazing that permits most of the sun’s short-wave (light) radiation to enter, while blocking up to 90% of the long-wave (heat) radiation. Low-e coatings boost a window’s R-value and reduce its U-factor. silver-colored paint on the underside of the roof deck, or a perforated radiant barrier under the rafters, would make a difference during the cooling season (with only modest increases in heating costs during the winter). The first step, though, is more insulation.

"But you might start with over-blowing the floor-fluff with 6-8 inches of cellulose, to bring the combined depth to about 15-16 inches," Dorsett says. "(As a DIY, do what the pros do — install multiple depth gauge strips to know when you're there.)"

Turn off the fan

GBA senior editor Martin Holladay notes that the fan is problematic: "The best approach is to immediately disconnect the powered attic ventilator, and then to hire a contractor to transform your vented unconditioned attic into an unvented conditioned attic," Holladay says.

No matter what the climate zone, a powered attic ventilator is not a good idea, he adds. (For more information on this issue, see Fans in the Attic: Do They Help or Do They Hurt?)

"Creating a conditioned attic to bring HVAC equipment inside the home's thermal envelope is always good advice — it's never a good idea to locate HVAC equipment or ducts outside of your home," Holladay writes. "That said, the required work is expensive, so the investment often makes little sense from an economic payback perspective."

Holladay continues, "Installing a radiant barrier under your rafters may make sense in your case. Moreover, it's always a good idea to seal leaks at ductwork seams, to seal leaks in your home's ceiling (the attic floor), and to improve the R-valueMeasure of resistance to heat flow; the higher the R-value, the lower the heat loss. The inverse of U-factor. of your attic insulation and duct insulation."

The cooling effects of an attic ventilation fan are in most cases "negative," Dorsett says. That is, Ted will end up using more energy, not less.

"Attic ventilation is really never about cooling," he says. "It's primarily about moisture control, to keep the wood in the attic from getting moldy or rotting. In more humid climates such as on the Gulf Coast, in air conditioned homes even passive attic ventilation puts more moisture into the attic than it removes."

Attic conversions can be expensive

As if to underscore Holladay's point, Brian Gray, writing from Chicago, says that he faces a nearly identical situation as Ted does, and the fix is looking to be anything but cheap.

"I've been debating my situation for what seems like forever," he says. It comes down to three options, the first of which is to convert his attic into a conditioned space by installing 4 1/2 inches of polyisoPolyisocyanurate foam is usually sold with aluminum foil facings. With an R-value of 6 to 6.5 per inch, it is the best insulator and most expensive of the three types of rigid foam. Foil-faced polyisocyanurate is almost impermeable to water vapor; a 1-in.-thick foil-faced board has a permeance of 0.05 perm. While polyisocyanurate was formerly manufactured using HCFCs as blowing agents, U.S. manufacturers have now switched to pentane. Pentane does not damage the earth’s ozone layer, although it may contribute to smog. insulation above the roof deck and then adding a new standing-seam metal roof. He'd add open-cell foam below the roof deck to give the assembly the required R-value, but the bids range from $40,000 to $60,000.

His other options are cheaper, but they have some disadvantages.

"$40K+ is a lot of money to solve a problem, but I get a new roof, better curb appeal, and surely a higher resale," he says. "That said, it's a lot of money."

Encapsulating ducts in spray foam

One option Gray is considering is to encase the ducts in his attic with a 3-inch layer of closed-cell foam, a job he believes would be possible with one or two DIY spray kits and a total cost of between $600 and $1,200. Would this idea have any value in Ted's situation?

Because closed-cell foam can only be safely applied in layers, or "lifts," of 2 inches at a time, Dorsett replies, that's probably the limit of what should be considered for ductwork.

Using different versions of closed-cell foam, applied with different blowing agents, would be slightly more expensive but also allow thicker layers to be applied in a single lift. "At 2 inches, most [hydrofluoroolefin] blown 2-pound foam would be north of R-14, and north of R-20 at 3 inches," Dorsett says. "It still may not be financially rational to go more than 2 inches."

Open-cell foam, he adds, is another option. Cheaper and less of a threat to the environment, open-cell foam is relatively vapor-permeable, meaning some moisture will collect during long periods of heavy air conditioning use, he says, "but unlike fiber insulation, open-cell foam isn't air-permeable, and the rate of accumulation is still quite slow, probably slow enough to be OK in a Zone 5A climate."

Dorsett says that most spray foam would have to be coated with an intumescent paint to be fully code-compliant.

How much insulation do ducts really need?

Ted notes that flexible ducts sold in retail stores seems to be insulated to R-4 or R-8, but by his own measurements conditioned air still shows a 10° to 15° drop from one end of the supply trunk to the other. Should there be such a steep drop in temperature in a run of only about 10 feet?

"You are correct that the drop in temperature indicates that the duct is poorly insulated," Holladay replies. "R-4 or R-8 duct insulation is certainly better than nothing, but for those of us who care about insulation, even R-8 doesn't make much sense for ducts that are outside of the home's thermal envelope.

"After all, most new homes have R-49 insulation on the attic floor," Holladay continues. "When the attic is 20°F, that insulation is addressing a delta-TDifference in temperature across a divider; often used to refer to the difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures. of 50 F°. But the air in the ducts is facing a delta-T of maybe 100 F° or 120 F° — a greater delta-T. So (logically) the ducts deserve more, not less, insulation. Obviously, it's hard to install R-60 duct insulation. But I raise the delta-T discussion to demonstrate why it's so important to bring your ducts inside your home's thermal envelope."

Dorsett adds this thought to the discussion about duct work insulation: "The reason ducts don't need R-60 insulation despite the higher temperature difference is that total square footage of the duct surface area is much less than the attic floor, and the duty cycle on most systems isn't anywhere near 100%. R-8 is usually fine for supply ducts, and less is OK for return ducts (due to the smaller temperature difference)."

This may be true, Holladay says, but even R-8 insulation doesn't solve the problem when ducts are located in the wrong place. "Ducts need to be indoors," he says.

Our expert's opinion

Peter Yost, GBA's technical director, adds this:

No organism we know of puts its lungs, unsheltered, outside its body; so putting HVAC systems outside a conditioned space is hardly biomimicryPractice of imitating nature in the design and/or production of buildings, systems, or products. . But there we are, with ducts and HVAC units in the hostile environment of an unconditioned attic.

First thing: Kill the attic ventilator. Unless you have a perfect air barrierBuilding assembly components that work as a system to restrict air flow through the building envelope. Air barriers may or may not act as a vapor barrier. The air barrier can be on the exterior, the interior of the assembly, or both. at the ceiling line — and why would you if you are already in a building where someone chose to put the space conditioning outside? — you will be pulling makeup air along the paths of least resistance, including from the conditioned space below. You can’t vent your way out of this predicament.

The best option is to move the conditioned boundary to the roofline. Insulate and air seal to pull the attic inside the building. This could and should have been done in the first place, but now you have another chance to make it right.

The next best option is to encapsulate the ducts. See recommendations for accomplishing this at the Building America Solution Center. Note all the tabs for various items of key information.

For more information, see two other suggested solutions: Ducts Buried in Attic Insulation and Ducts Buried in Attic Insulation & Encapsulated. Note that the former approach is not recommended in moist and marine climates while the latter approach is OK for all climates.


Tags: , , , , ,

Image Credits:

  1. Tedliu

1.
Jun 12, 2017 9:55 PM ET

Biomimicry
by Malcolm Taylor

"No organism we know of puts its lungs, unsheltered, outside its body"

Great analogy.


2.
Jun 13, 2017 11:16 AM ET

Alternative strategy
by epom47

A much cheaper diy alternative might be to place the ducts along the top side of the ceiling then build air tight chases around them with sheating. Follow this with any kind of insulation you like. The air handler could be treated the same way. This would, in essence, be like bringing the ducts inside the home. This might be a lot of work but the expense would be minimal for a diy'er.


3.
Jun 13, 2017 11:25 AM ET

Epom,
by Malcolm Taylor

Sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. Above the ceiling you have the roof structure to be navigated. At best ceiling joists, more commonly the bottom chords and diagonal members of trusses. How you would frame, air-seal and then cover it with insulation is hard to imagine.


4.
Jun 15, 2017 10:51 AM ET

You can lead a horse to water
by Elden Lindamood

My mother recently bought a 1980's walk-out ranch house in western ND, climate zone 6. I visited for the first time last winter and it was raining in the house. She said, with alarmingly little urgency, "that happens when it is sunny out".
She asked me to go into the attic to find the roof leaks or "where the snow is blowing in through the soffits". I found, instead, a vintage 3 ton AC unit with 1" rigid insulation taped all over it and "insulated" flex duct snaking all over the poorly insulated attic. The rigid insulation was saturated from condensation. The flex ducts were literally filled shut with ice in the low spots, compressing the scant insulation layer beneath them. The sun would come out, melt some ice, and it would find it's way to the nearest hole into the house. There was no evidence of roof leaks, even around the attic fan.
I sat her down at the dining room table and told her she heeded to get a new AC system installed, INSIDE THE THERMAL ENVELOPE, and remove the old one from the attic. Then air seal and insulate the attic much better (incidentally she also used 1200 gallons of propane last winter).
Her response was "The water will evaporate from the ducts by the time I need the AC on". She is also still convinced that snow is blowing in through the soffits despite my evidence that is is not and in fact can't because there are no vent chutes to connect the soffits to the attic.
Lesson: Let's not forget we are up against the general public. If one contractor tells them it is a $40,000 fix, and another tells them it is a $400 fix, the majority of people will believe the latter, science and common sense be damned. Things that make us cringe are the norm, and what concerns us seems inconsequential to far too many.
Nevertheless, I will persist.


5.
Jun 15, 2017 11:58 AM ET

Try a $4000 fix @ Elden Lindamood
by Dana Dorsett

"If one contractor tells them it is a $40,000 fix, and another tells them it is a $400 fix, the majority of people will believe the latter, science and common sense be damned."

Try to investigate the ~$4000 fix:

In more cases than not a 3 ton AC with the ducts in the attic has a ton or so of load that's just from the location of the ducts in the attic and the associated duct gains, leakage, etc.. The remaining 2 tons of capacity is at least 1.5x oversized for the actual 1% load. So the real cooling load for the HOUSE is likely to be no more than 1-1.3 tons, but it could even be on the order of 3/4 tons with the air leaks to the attic & sagging attic insulation are corrected. Of course a Manual-J is better than a WAG, but the WAG probably isn't that far off.

Depending on the floor plan a single 1 ton or 1.25 ton cold climate mini-split may be able to cool the whole shebang more comfortably & cheaply than the noisy Medusa of moldy flex in the attic, and also heat most of the place 75% of the time at about half the cost of heating with propane (or less). If the mini-split keeps up with the cooling load sealing up the registers to the ice-maker in the attic (lowering both the heating & cooling load) would be easier to argue, without having to start the 5th grade science lesson all over again.

The napkin calculation on heating costs goes like this:

ND retail propane is running about $1.40/gallon in recent years, so she probably spent ~$1700 on heating this season. It's been as high as $2/gallon back when WTI crude was priced closer to $100/bbl, but there was also an extreme spike in 2014 when it went to $4.50/gallon. See:

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_...

ND residential retail electricity has been reliably under 10 cents, ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a )and with the high penetration of zero marginal cost wind power in that state there is growing downward pressure on wholesale electricity pricing- it's not likely to go over 10 cents any time soon. Even assuming an as-used COP of 3 (HPSF 10.2, well below the nameplate 13-ish HSPFs of current cold climate mini-splits ), a dollar of electricity buys her 102,000 BTU of heat delivered into the house.

That's more than just the 91,600 source fuel BTU content of a gallon of propane. At $1.40/gallon dollar only buys 0.71 gallons of propane. Burned in a 95% efficiency furnace or boiler that delivers 91,600 x 0.71 x 0.95= ~62,000 BTU per dollar, without even correcting for distribution losses, or the cost of the electricity used.

When it's sub-zero outside the as-used efficiency of the mini-split will be less than that, but when it's above 30F it'll probably be higher, but even at -10F but if the EIA electricity & propane pricing is true in her case, the cost of the heat coming out of the mini-split will still be on-par with that of condensing propane at sub-zero temps. The total capacity of the mini-split probably isn't enough to cover the load at -10F, and the heat distribution would likely be terrible at -10F, so the propane burner is going to stay, but the mini-split would cut the propane use by half or more, replacing the $800-900 of propane burned with $400-500 of electricity use, for a net savings of at least $300/year, but it could be as high as $500/year. The thing eventually pays for itself just on heating season savings within the anticipated life cycle, but it'll also save during the cooling season. It'll probably pay for itself in COMFORT right away.


6.
Jun 15, 2017 5:50 PM ET

RE:You can lead a horse to water
by Dennis Heidner

I would also gently remind your mother that stagnant water in ducts - are great breeding places for legionnaire disease... and the air moving over the water when the ducts unfreeze are a wonderful means to spread the Legionella bacteria in the house. Visit a local pharmacy and buy about 100 face masks for her to wear while the air conditioner is in use... it is a some what subtle reminder of how dangerous the situation can be...


7.
Jun 15, 2017 9:32 PM ET

Dennis
by Malcolm Taylor

If Elden's mother is anything like mine, he would probably be better off saving his breath to cool his pie.


8.
Jun 15, 2017 10:16 PM ET

Attic Ducts Buried in Cellulose - CZ5A / CZ6A
by Joe Duchek

I realize that burying insulated attic ductwork with cellulose isn't recommended in the eastern (moist) half of the US, but is anyone aware of actual condensation issues from "properly" buried (but not spray foamed) insulated ducts in the upper half of CZ 5A or lower half of CZ 6A (Great Lakes region, etc.)?

Most of the cautionary stories seem reference humid, southern locations or the use of uninsulated, poorly sealed duct work, and therefore I'd be interested to hear about anyone's "up north" experiences when the guidance linked in this article was generally followed. BPI certified contractors here in the Chicago region have suggested / quoted me the loose-fill over ducts solution and therefore I suspect that they regularly do it without issues. Obviously not ideal, but I am juggling the near-term and long-term options for a poorly insulated attic with ductwork.

Thanks in advance.

Joe


9.
Jun 21, 2017 12:46 PM ET

Thanks all
by Elden Lindamood

Thanks for the napkin calc Dana. I'll add it to my arsenal, but when I hoisted the mini-split flag it was pulled back down with the typical "I don't want to look at that ugly 'box' on the wall". Malcolm's quip is apt.
I had thought of the legionnaire's argument too, but hadn't plied it. That may, in fact, speak more to her anxieties than spending $1500/yr on propane.
Joe, I thought of covering the ducts too. They are hung from trusses, draped on top of the insulation, crossing each other, and generally poorly done. That wouldn't solve the AHU issue either, so I think the better solution is to make them go away.


10.
Jun 22, 2017 10:44 PM ET

Fiberglass batts under the roof?
by bruce thompson

What happens if one simply places insulation between the roof rafters?


11.
Jun 23, 2017 6:19 AM ET

Edited Jun 23, 2017 6:22 AM ET.

Response to Bruce Thompson
by Martin Holladay

Bruce,
Assuming that there isn't any rigid foam above the roof sheathing -- and we know that Ted's roof doesn't have any exterior foam -- you can only install fiberglass batts between the rafters if you also create a ventilation channel between the top of the fiberglass batts and the underside of the roof sheathing.

Creating this type of ventilation channel will only work if (a) there are soffit vents at the base of each rafter bay, (b) there is a ridge vent at the top of each rafter bay, and (c) there are no dormers, skylights, valleys, or hips that interfere with the ventilation channels.

To learn more about all of the different ways to create an insulated sloped roof assembly, see this article: How to Build an Insulated Cathedral Ceiling.

Now, to your question:

Q. "What happens if one simply places insulation between the roof rafters?"

A. One sets up a risky situation that encourages moisture accumulation in the sheathing, mold, and possible sheathing rot. And one is guilty of a code violation.


Register for a free account and join the conversation


Get a free account and join the conversation!
Become a GBA PRO!