0 Helpful?

Do I really need 4 minisplits?

My wife and I own a lot in a development in the Pacific NW (Zone 4c), and we are planning to build our retirement house on it. We have never built a house before. Our projected house (which we designed ourselves) is 1,833 sq. ft. on one story, a modified California-style bungalow, as simple in geometry as we could make it.

The developer of this neighborhood is a good guy, and he wants to work with us; however, he is not really into “green” building per se. He aims at giving solid value for money, and he succeeds. We tend to prefer going with him, opposed to getting an outside bid, since he lives in his own development (built on land his family has owned for generations) and stands behind his product. He is listed as an Energy Star builder, but that standard is too wimpy for my tastes.

He has quoted us an affordable price for the house (VERY important, since this is all the money we have), but basically he would put up a stick-built house (well-built we have no doubt), in the traditional West Coast manner: ventilated crawlspace, under-floor R-19 insulation, 2x6 walls, plenty of wood (no Advanced Framing), R-19 fiberglass walls, truss roof with R-38 attic.

For HVAC we prefer minisplits (the local minisplit dealer lives in the same development), and for our 1,833 sf house the builder has budgeted for 4 minisplit units (probably the smallest Mitsubishi Mr. Slim). I, on the other hand, would like a sealed, insulated crawl space (and rim joist) per BSC recommendations, 2x6 walls (well-sealed) with R-23 Roxul rock wool or R-21 fiberglass, 1.5” to 2” polyiso sheathing (yielding a nominal >R-30 wall), and the attic insulated to R-49 or R-60.

The sealed crawl I think I can talk him into: the price should be a wash. And the sealing of air leaks is something he’ll surely do. But I think the polyiso foam with siding nailed to vertical battens will be a sticking point. I don’t think he’s ever built that way before, and I’m pretty sure he’s going to tell us it will cost a lot more money, what with the added trim-out details around the windows, etc.

My thinking is this: why should we put 4 minisplit units into a small house if we can put part of that money into improving the thermal envelope? (I know another builder, by the way, who is hungering to build us a hybrid ICF foundation-SIP wall structure. But he doesn’t live in the neighborhood.)

Your advice, please, especially about the minisplits. How many do I really need in a house of this size?

Asked by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 23, 2012 1:59 AM ET
Edited Nov 21, 2014 11:51 AM ET

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64 Answers

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1.

Gordon,

Just to confirm your suspicions, the cost you would save by installing only one mini-split should more than pay for the envelope improvements. As the envelope improves, there's less need for mechanical equipment. Do some further reading to educate yourself about best practices for green building--this list is a great resource: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/how-do-everything.

Answered by TJ Elder
Posted Jan 23, 2012 2:31 AM ET

2.

But would one mini-split suffice?

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 23, 2012 2:34 AM ET

3.

Gordon,
Q. "Would one mini-split suffice?"

A. There are two issues here: your total heating load and distribution effectiveness.

The only way to know your total heating load is to calculate it. If your and your builder don't know how to calculate your home's heating and cooling load, you'll probably need to hire an energy consultant.

Concerning distribution: if you leave your bedroom doors open for most of the day, you'll probably be fine. If privacy requirements mean that your bedroom doors are closed during the day, you may need one or two ducted minisplit units -- or backup electric resistance heaters in the bedrooms.

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 23, 2012 4:52 AM ET

4.

Gordon...

Unless your home site is too far out from a good selection of builders I would recommend finding one who builds with the methods that support your goals for your home. Sound green and energy efficient building requires starting at the bottom of the pyramid and working your way up. Leaving out some of the steps or mixing and matching doesn't work well. Worse, what is acceptable in a traditionally built home may lead to unintended consequences in one trying to be energy efficient.

Trying to make a cow be a horse is really difficult. Yeah, they both graze and look good in a pasture, but riding a cow is less than optimal.

Answered by bruce john stracke
Posted Jan 23, 2012 8:12 AM ET
Edited Jan 23, 2012 8:16 AM ET.

5.

I agree completely with Bruce. My first thought was to find and hire a contractor who you don't have to drag kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Especially in Portland. Gordon, it seems you like this guy for a variety of reasons, but if you want to build responsibly, you may do better with a contractor who (if he's not experienced at green building) is at least willing to try some of the methods that are detailed on this site. And be open minded. Ignorant people who are willing to learn are a world away from ignorant people who prefer to stay ignorant. I know I'm making some generalizations here, but attention to detail is paramount in green building and I, for one, would not want to be working with someone I not only had to teach, but had to convince!

Rant over.

edit: Looks like you never mentioned Portland. Sorry.

Answered by Jeff Nelson
Posted Jan 23, 2012 10:29 PM ET
Edited Jan 23, 2012 11:20 PM ET.

6.

Many thanks to all who posted replies. I really appreciate it. No, I did not mention Portland, Jeff. Nor did I name a state or province. I'm deliberately being vague about location because I sincerely like and respect the developer in question. I'm certainly well aware of all Martin's posts, though I can't always (to say the least) follow the levels of nerditude to which the discussions rise. (There's a squiggly line under that word, so I must have come up with a new coinage.) I was just trying to get a ball-park estimate for my heating needs, and I was trying to do it without spending as much money for a consultant as I would for another mini-split. (Yeah, I'm cheap.) In any case, this helps. Thanks again.

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 24, 2012 1:53 AM ET

7.

In Texas we usually(not always) occupy our bedrooms at night...and we often close the doors.
I think a multiple ductless mini-split concept could work....
The problem is ....the "heads" are all oversized for reasonable size bedrooms.

I think What we need are MICRO-Minisplits

I know there are multiple head VRV systems ... but the heads still seem to be oversized for bedrooms and the "lines" still have to be run back to the main outdoor unit.

I think It would be better if each Micro-head had a very short "line" to it's own outdoor heat exchanger.

Answered by John Brooks
Posted Jan 24, 2012 7:05 AM ET

8.

There's no need to spend "as much money for a consultant as I would for another mini-split" in order to get a heat loss calculation. You could actually waste a lot of money by not doing this particular part of your project correctly.

Answered by David Meiland
Posted Jan 24, 2012 8:45 AM ET

9.

John,
In Massachusetts, people usually close their bedroom doors at night, too. But Carter Scott, a builder in Townsend, Mass., isn't getting any complaints from homeowners who have bought his homes, which are heated with two ductless minisplits -- one in the downstairs living room, and one in the upstairs hall. The bedrooms have no heat.

The key is to have a very well insulated thermal envelope with a low rate of air leakage. If you don't spend daylight hours in your bedroom, just leave your bedroom door open during the day.

All I'm saying is, it works in Massachusetts.

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 24, 2012 8:56 AM ET

10.

Gordon, lots of good advice thus far. John's comment about mini-split heads being too large for bedrooms is spot on, but mostly a summer issue. Martin is also correct in that suggestion that you may not need a head in each bedroom. Here's the rest of the story...

If a house has enough insulation and tight enough, it may not need direct distribution in smaller bedrooms, and maybe not even in the master, depending on design loads (especially glazing area and u-factor). On the other hand, in cooling climates, even a super insulated home may need direct distribution to bedrooms, especially those facing south and/or west. Much depends on personal preference. I know plenty of folks who are ok with 60F at night during winter and don't mind sleeping with only a ceiling fan in summer, even if the bedroom reaches 80F! Personally, my wife and I have trouble sleeping if the bedroom is above 73F in summer. If you have kids, their tolerance depends on what they're used to. Infants are another matter. So I reject blanket statements about what works and what doesn't. All that being said, I don't believe the specifications you indicated are nearly enough to get away with a single centrally located head, at least not in your climate zone.

Regarding John's point about minimum head capacity... Mini-splits with variable refrigerant flow (VRF) technology are able to ramp down capacity depending on load. However, the operating range of an individual head is rather limited, with minimum capacity typically 60% to 70% of maximum. So in a bedroom, where the peak load might only be 1k or 2k BTU/hr, you can end up with what I refer to as "motel room syndrome", especially under part-load conditions, whereby you end up freezing when unit is on and feel warm in comparison when it cycles off. This is less of an issue in heating mode since heat pumps naturally have a more moderate supply air temperature and longer runs times.

Assuming a mini-split is the best solution for your home (I'm not convinced of that), the best way to resolve the distribution problem is to use a ducted head for the bedrooms (requires a ultra-low static duct system). But I can't imagine a variable drive mini-split system with four heads would cost less than a conventional ducted system. Any gain in efficiency VRF provides is unlikely to offset the additional cost. In my experience, the best use of mini-split systems is in a super-insulated home with design loads of less than 15KBTU/hr, or in disconnected rooms such as a garage apartment or bonus room.

I specialize in designing mechanical systems for high performance homes. At the expense of appearing self-serving, you should give serious consideration to hiring a 3rd party designer for your envelope and mechanical systems. Without careful modeling and expert HVAC guidance, you'll likely spend far more than you should, or end up with sub-par performance, or both.

David Butler
http://optimalbuilding.com

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 24, 2012 7:32 PM ET
Edited Jan 24, 2012 7:33 PM ET.

11.

This is great advice. Thanks to you, David, and to Martin H. and the rest. I now have a much clearer idea of how to proceed.

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 24, 2012 11:15 PM ET

12.

By the way, I went to the Taunton Store last night and spent $20 on old issues of FH, the better to acquaint myself with the topics at hand. (1/2 price sale)

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 24, 2012 11:20 PM ET

13.

interesting read David. That is the sort of feedback I have been searching for for a long time as I too debate between a mini split system or a geo system for our new home.

Answered by Jesse Lizer
Posted Jan 25, 2012 9:41 AM ET

14.

Why not just use a transfer grille (motorized or not depending upon the supply air setup) between the large spaces with minisplits and the bedrooms? What little energy is used by the motorized versions would be more than recovered in the higher efficiencies of the wall-mounted versus ducted minisplit systems.

Answered by Nathan Spriegel
Posted Jan 25, 2012 9:51 AM ET

15.

Nathan, I've seen this work in a Passive House, but using jump ducts with in-line axial fans. Keep in mind that when circulating room-temperature air, it takes a LOT more CFM to satisfy a given load than with direct distribution, where you're working with 55F or 110F supply air. For this reason, this strategy would only work in super insulated, extremely tight homes. In any case, there's no way a couple of transfer fans (which aren't available with ECM to my knowledge) would be more economical than a ducted mini-split.

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 25, 2012 12:53 PM ET

16.

Jesse, ironically, the more efficient the envelope, the more difficult it becomes to justify the additional cost of high efficiency equipment. Once you 'do the math' as many times as I have, it becomes obvious that mid-efficiency single-stage air source heat pumps nearly always have lower lifecycle costs than multi-stage, gshp, or mini-splits. Whole house mini-split systems, in my opinion, are only appropriate when conventional equipment won't work, for example, homes with extremely low loads. They're still too expensive to compete on efficiency alone.

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 25, 2012 1:48 PM ET

17.

David,
There's one more justification for considering a minisplit: they are appropriate for very cold climates, whereas most American air-source heat pumps don't operate at cold outdoor temperatures.

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 25, 2012 1:59 PM ET

18.

There's one more justification for considering a minisplit: they are appropriate for very cold climates

Hmmmn... do you happen to have a handy consolidated chart of different mfr's minisplits operation at "very cold" temperatures? Because from what I remember, hunting around, they're not typically brilliant. I'll go back and look--in the meantime, can you share your insight & sources?

(If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to know it, because perhaps I'll get a minisplit.)

Answered by Mojave Disaster, 3B
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:01 PM ET

19.

Minneapolis,
Model number PUZHA36NHA Mitsubishi Mr. Slim Hyper-heat -- $6,286 on the Internet.
Nominal rating is 38,000 Btuh. Actual output at -13°F is 30,000 Btuh
Variable speed. 20 amp maximum amp draw.
COP at 5°F is 1.9. Obviously the COP is less at -13°F, but is still above 1.0.

More specs here:
http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/media/226460/h2i_brochure.pdf

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:13 PM ET

20.

Martin, interesting that you would make that point. I think you have it backwards. All mini-splits, at least the ones I'm familiar with, have hard cut-offs, typically between 0F and 10F. On the other hand, conventional (American) air source heat pumps have no hard cut-off. For example, Trane's expanded performance tables go down to 2F, and Carrier's go down to -3F. And these values don't mean they won't operate at much lower ambients. Case in point - the tables for my Lennox go down to -20F, and its design is not much different from the other majors.

In practice, for homes with access to natural gas, I specify an external hard cut-off at the economic balance point, which depends on local electricity vs. gas prices. In order to calculate the economic balance point, it's necessary to refer to the expanded performance tables to estimate the COP curve. For example, my Lennox has a COP of 2.5 at 17F (rated) and 2.0 at 0F (estimated). \

Edit: I just read your subsequent post, and yes, the Hyper Heat is one example of a mini-split that operates below 0F. But to say American heat pumps don't operate at cold temps is simply wrong.

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:14 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 3:17 PM ET.

21.

" Do I really need 4 minisplits?"

Centralize a mini split or two in a superinsulated home. Install interior doors with 1" gap at floor. Add undertile electric radiant floor heat to daily AM used bathrooms. Add ceiling fans to bedrooms. Now you have comfort in all your rooms summers and winters. Cost effective strategy and simple.

Perfection

Answered by aj builder, Upstate NY Zone 6a
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:17 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 3:19 PM ET.

22.

Fantastic. A down-to-earth answer. Thank you, AJ Builder!

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:19 PM ET

23.

Undercut doors are not adequate for return air in most rooms

and it is certainly not a "solution" for air distribution

Answered by John Brooks
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:29 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 3:39 PM ET.

24.

David,
I accept your point: American air-source heat pumps can operate at cold temperatures, so my earlier comment wasn't quite correct. I don't know of any American air-source heat pump that can match the specs of the Mr. Slim Hyperheat, however.

Furthermore, I'm confused about why you write, "For homes with access to natural gas, I specify an external hard cut-off at the economic balance point, which depends on local electricity vs. gas prices." If you're also installing a gas furnace for cold temperatures, you're installing more equipment than necessary. Why bother with a gas furnace AND an air-source heat pump?

Natural gas is so cheap, that if you have a furnace, don't bother with the heat pump.

[LATER EDIT] Oh, I just realized -- the heat pump is mostly there for summer cooling, and only incidentally for a little bit of heating during the swing seasons...

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 25, 2012 3:33 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 3:43 PM ET.

25.

Gordon - I don't think Martin and David's suggestion should be overlooked. If you really want to know the heating / cooling load for your house, it's going to take some homework. Hiring a consultant that's well versed in this type of discussion will allow you to create a house design that's optimized for your climate, and a heating / cooling system that's optimized for your house. Yes it will cost some money, and take some time, but it should result in a more thoughtful design . . . and hopefully a more rewarding outcome.

Answered by Daniel Ernst
Posted Jan 25, 2012 8:48 PM ET

26.

One thing that hasn't been discussed here is ventilation. HVAC - Heating, VENTILATION, and Air Conditioning.

To John Brooks - I'm guessing that your skepticism of a centrally located minisplit has less to do with heating, more to do with cooling, right? Have you thought about a single point source for heating / cooling (a centrally located minisplit) coupled with an HRV / ERV? The minisplit provides the conditioning, the whole house ventilation system provides the distribution and mixing.

The MICRO Mini-split you talked about is the ERV fresh air port located in each bedroom ;-)

Martin - Do you know if Carter Scott's houses have balanced ventilation? I remember seeing what appears to be a Lifebreath HRV in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySPp4XECFf0

Answered by Daniel Ernst
Posted Jan 25, 2012 9:05 PM ET

27.

Daniel, My concern is more about cooling...
And of course we need ventilation.
I don't know how practical or affordable it would be ... but my understanding from a few sources including John Struabe's BSI Insight 022 (The Perfect HVAC) is that discrete components would be the most efficient.

insight.JPG
Answered by John Brooks
Posted Jan 25, 2012 10:39 PM ET

28.

Martin wrote:
"I don't know of any American air-source heat pump that can match the specs of the Mr. Slim Hyperheat"

As I said before, my Lennox heat pump (mid-tier 15 SEER, 8.5 HSPF) has COP of 2.0 at 0F, a tad better than the mini-split you referenced. A lot of what I'd call 'conventional wisdom' regarding US-manufactured heat pumps is based on outdated information.

Martin wrote:
"Why bother with a gas furnace AND an air-source heat pump?"

You're making me work hard today!

A lot depends on local electric rates. In markets with average or better electric rates (say, 11 cents or lower), a mid-efficiency HP will cost less to operate above freezing than a high efficiency furnace. Keep in mind that in cold climates, in fact, especially in cold climates, there are far more heating hours above freezing than below. Referring to TMY2 bin tables for Minneapolis, we see that 2/3rds of the heating hours on average are above 30F. This surprises many folks. At $0.11/kWh, my HP has a COP47F of 3.95, so the average operating cost in the 30F to 65F heating range is about $0.82 cents/therm (electric rate * 29.3 / COP47F). I assume you know how to estimate the operating cost for a furnace. Just don't forget to account for blower energy. If blower is ecm/variable, we're talking 5 to 8 cents/therm (depends on electric rates). Roughly double that for a psc blower.

In cold climates, I frequently specify heat pumps supplemented by a hydronic fan coil. A high efficiency hot water source serves double-duty for dhw. It's worth noting that a HP outdoor unit only costs a few hundred more than the equivalent AC-only condenser. The air handler costs considerably less than a furnace, although the hydronic coil offsets part of that difference.

The benefit of this approach vs a dual-fuel furnace (furnace + HP outdoor unit), is that the HP and hydronic coil can operate simultaneously. This is not the case with a dual-fuel furnace (the HP must shut down when furnace turns on, else the freon will not condense). Why is this important? In markets with low electric rates, it makes sense to keep the heat pump on, even below freezing, taking advantage of it's lower operating cost. Also keep in mind that a HP's output doesn't fall off a cliff below freezing. It's a gradual slope. In high performance homes, it's not unusual for the thermal balance point to be in the mid-twenties. Assuming a balance point of 25F, the HP will still dispense with 80% of the load at 20F. This also seems to surprise a lot of people.

Of course, in areas with high electric rates, a HP may not be the best choice (unless natural gas isn't available). However, utilities with high electric rates tend to have seasonal rate schedules, with much lower rates in winter. The marginal winter rate is what's important in this type of analysis.

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 25, 2012 11:07 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 11:14 PM ET.

29.

Brooks, not thousands but millions of homes are lived in as I type this without distributed HVAC. Every hot water baseboard home. Every camp on the hundred lakes here in the Adirondacks.

And as to the need for super well ducted cooling for bedrooms, I am sure those of you living in the south think its mandatory, but in my area not.

My earlier spec is perfect for my area. And if Daniel Ernst's HRV is combined with it, then it is better than perfect.

Answered by aj builder, Upstate NY Zone 6a
Posted Jan 25, 2012 11:11 PM ET
Edited Jan 25, 2012 11:12 PM ET.

30.

To Daniel Ernst: You point about the heating load calculation is well taken. I will certainly not neglect the advice. Thanks for your input.

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 25, 2012 11:12 PM ET

31.

To Martin, Daniel Ernst, and others: Perhaps I should ask this in a new thread; however, I have just found the DIY heat load calculation software at hvac-calc.com. It looks good to me, and it costs $49 for an individual homeowner to use. Has anyone used this program?

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 25, 2012 11:42 PM ET

32.

David,
Thanks for your lengthy, detail-filled response; I appreciate it.

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 26, 2012 5:30 AM ET

33.

Martin or anyone else familiar with the Mitsu hyper heats. I was reading some product literature and it appears, at least on the 36k H2i units you can "twin" the heads and use two. I assume this might be an option if one would want to have better air distribution? Any thought if it could be done on the 12k BTU unit?

Answered by Jesse Lizer
Posted Jan 26, 2012 11:27 AM ET
Edited Jan 26, 2012 11:31 AM ET.

34.

Jesse,
I don't know. I suggest you call Mitsubishi and talk to a technical rep.

Answered by Martin Holladay
Posted Jan 26, 2012 11:49 AM ET

35.

Hello, can someone answer my question about HVAC-calc?

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 26, 2012 1:13 PM ET

36.

Gordon, the s/w you referenced is not compliant with Manual J 8th edition. AFAIK, only RHVAC (Elite) and Right-J (Wrightsoft) are MJ8 compliant. The previous version (7th Ed.) was published in 1986 and doesn't even include support for low-e windows. The evolution from MJ7 to MJ8 was a huge step and long overdue. (The MJ book itself increased from 120 to 540 pages!) For example, MJ8 includes several computer procedures that greatly improve estimates of duct losses and solar gain through glazing. I could go on.

The learning curve for the RHVAC and Right-J software programs is steep, and in my experience, those who use any load calc software without owning the book and being familiar with the Manual J procedure are destined to make serious errors. These programs are only tools and cannot replace knowledge and experience.

In the design sequence, Manual S (equipment selection) follows Manual J. Here's a link to an article I wrote on Manual S: http://hub.am/pmwigX

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 26, 2012 1:50 PM ET

37.

David, thank you. I'm trying to fight my way out of a jargon vortex. So you're saying HVAC-calc is useless, correct? Remember, this is a small house in Zone 4c.

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 26, 2012 3:09 PM ET

38.

Gordon, I think the best advice was at post #25......

If you just want to save money up front....
You can toss a coin and decide if you need one or 2 minisplits, add some ceiling fans, undercut all your doors and cross your fingers

Answered by John Brooks
Posted Jan 26, 2012 4:15 PM ET

39.

Gordon,

For $49, you could muddle your way through a poorly organized piece of software that isn't up to speed with the current industry standard for residential load calculations and hope the result is accurate enough. Or for something like $249, you could have a professional (such as David Butler, for instance) run the load calculations.

Answered by John Semmelhack
Posted Jan 26, 2012 4:24 PM ET

40.

Almost Brooks. Add the radiant bath floors and the HRV as Daniel mentioned and perfection finger crossing optional.

Of course as I said before this design is for a cold climate not the south.

Answered by aj builder, Upstate NY Zone 6a
Posted Jan 26, 2012 4:34 PM ET

41.

Gordon, read the Service Cavities blog. And even better check out a site mentioned in that blogs post #62. I think your builder and you will love the information.

http://blog.lamidesign.com/p/usa-new-wall.html

Answered by aj builder, Upstate NY Zone 6a
Posted Jan 26, 2012 4:45 PM ET

42.

We had a similar dilemma on a smaller (1120 sq/ft), very energy efficient house that we are just wrapping up: Do we use a 3 head mini-split, or use an HRV to help distribute the heat. In the end, we used a 2 head mini-split - but: We used a ceiling unit and ducted it into the 2 bedrooms. All of this is overkill in a house that has a heat load of less than 10K btu/h by Manual J and 0.6 ACH BEFORE BIB and drywall.

Answered by Jim Hassi
Posted Jan 26, 2012 5:54 PM ET

43.

Jim
can you comment on how the system is performing, a long with your location?
thanks

Answered by Jesse Lizer
Posted Jan 26, 2012 6:16 PM ET

44.

Jim, you could have skipped the heating equipment and gotten a medium-sized dog to heat the house.

Answered by David Meiland
Posted Jan 26, 2012 8:15 PM ET

45.

AJ, I am well acquainted with the jargon vortex contained within the Service Cavities blog, as well as the orgy of technical delights in that PassivHaus blog. It felt like the old Johnny Cash song, "I fell into a burnin' ring of acronyms." I assume that's what you're referring to. Your other points are well taken. I have read the USA New Wall blogposts by Mr. Vardera several times. Why, specifically, did you recommend that? Maybe I didn't read it carefully enough. That happens quite often. By the way (or BTW, if you guys prefer), the underfloor bath heating you recommend was already in our plans.

And thank you, John Brooks, for your insights as well. Even if I end up following AJB's advice, I'll still look in the phone book.

Last, I just want to say, like a modern Scarlett O'Hara, starved and grubbing in the dirt of modern verbiage, "As God is my witness, no matter what happens, I'll never use AFAIK in a written communication!"

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 26, 2012 11:39 PM ET

46.

Gordon, one suggestion regarding bathroom heat. I typically recommend electric heat for small problem areas like baths and the knee-space of an oft-used desk. Adding a bit of supplemental heat to these areas can improve comfort AND save energy, assuming main thermostat is thus kept lower than otherwise.

In areas where the supplemental heat may be needed over a period of hours, radiant heaters are best (as opposed to convection), combined with mass. I use one of those oil-filed radiators (DeLonghi) in my home office. But in a bathroom, where you need heat quickly for brief periods, convection is good, while mass provides little benefit. A low-wattage baseboard or "toe kick" heater would be a good choice, controlled by a wind-up timer. Just be sure to get the lowest wattage available. I've also used 250-watt IR bulbs (requires a special housing, with local fan) to good effect. These used to be fairly common in hotel baths. It's really more of a lifestyle choice, but these options are less costly than in-floor heat, and should use less energy since they would likely be energized for shorter periods.

Attached is a resource list I compiled.

AttachmentSize
electric_heat_resources.pdf 15.26 KB
Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 27, 2012 2:51 PM ET
Edited Jan 27, 2012 2:56 PM ET.

47.

Even better. Thank you, David.

Answered by Gordon Taylor
Posted Jan 27, 2012 3:13 PM ET

48.

Cold bathroom. Cold tile. Wake up, enter, burr. Wind up Davids timer. Jump in shower. Get out, warm air, cold tile.

Radiant tile heat set on digital clock timer comes on warms tile before you wake up. Warm feet, happy feet, happy human, overall pure joy. Your first week you like it so much that you get a divorce from fighting over who gets to the bathroom first.

Davids idea is a nice 1950s hotel idea though.

Answered by aj builder, Upstate NY Zone 6a
Posted Jan 27, 2012 3:33 PM ET
Edited Jan 27, 2012 3:36 PM ET.

49.

Warm tiles are nice. I got around the 'cold tile' syndrome by placing a small mat in front of the vanity. The bath mat takes care of shower exit. Just pointing out options. As I said, it's a lifestyle choice.

Answered by David Butler
Posted Jan 27, 2012 5:15 PM ET

50.

RE: David Butler

I wonder if you could tell us the model number of your Lennox heat pump, I could find no info on lo temp performance of their products, most run on heatstrips in low temps

Answered by Keith Gustafson
Posted Jan 28, 2012 11:14 AM ET

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