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Builder sub recommends double wrapping

ownerfred | Posted in General Questions on

Hi all. I am building in MD (Climate Zone 4). Framing has started and I am in a weird situation. Building specs include OSB sheathing and house wrap. I asked my builder to please tape the OSB using ZIP tape or 3M 8067 before building started and that was agreed to. I also asked for TYVEK commercial wrap to be used and installed using the cap nails/staples.

The framer started installing REX wrap (?) and I flagged it to builder. Builder relays to me that the framer is saying that the ZIP tape will not stick to OSB. Framer is suggesting double wrapping the house instead (REX then TYVEK?). I have never heard of double wrapping a house so I am not sure what it would do.

I am open to any advice since this is the first house I am building (and hopefully my last). My budget is limited and  I am trying to find easy ways to build a somewhat energy efficient house. Should I suggest another tape? Should I be ok with double wrapping the house?

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Replies

  1. Expert Member
    Akos | | #1

    For good air sealing, you want the sheathing taped not the house wrap. Unless you are doing stucco, an extra layer of house wrap does pretty much nothing, it doesn't improve air tightness or reduce moisture risk, all it adds is cost.

    OSB is not the easiest to stick to, you can read about tape options here:

    https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/app/uploads/sites/default/files/Backyard%20Tape%20Test%20-%20final.pdf

    If it was my house, and I have it in writing, I would insist on taped seams and quality house wrap.

    I've never use the Rex so I can't comment. There are a lot of low quality house wraps out there. Usually stuff that is perforated is junk, quick test is to make a small pocket out of it and fill it with water. If it leaks through I would not use it. Tyvek, especially their commercial wrap is an excellent product.

    1. ownerfred | | #2

      Thanks for the reply. I will ask them to remove the REX wrap so that they can flash the seams.

      I guess Siga Wigluv 60 is probably my best bet with tape. It's pretty expensive at 60+ dollars a roll. Is liquid flash a viable alternative? Zip liquid flash is about 44 bucks for a 20oz. Prosoco Fast Flash might be a little less

  2. kyle_r | | #3

    One option is to apply a spray adhesive like 3M High Strength 90 to the OSB before taping. This works great in my experience with 3M 8067 flashing tape. I would confirm compatibility with Zip tape.

  3. Expert Member
    DCcontrarian | | #4

    It's time to have a direct talk with the builder. Let him know that you really do want the house built a certain way. And that he signed a contract and you expect him to abide by the contract.

    Also, keep in mind that the sub doesn't work for you. He works for the builder. You're paying the builder to manage that relationship.

    1. jollygreenshortguy | | #10

      I wish the comment board had a "like" button because I would "like" this comment.
      Absolutely, spell it out with the builder. It's especially important to do so when a problem like this arises early in the project. If you "let it slide" then there will be more and more of these problems. If you politely but firmly assert your position you will earn respect and get better work.

      1. Expert Member
        DCcontrarian | | #14

        Thanks. I have to say these kinds of conflicts are my least favorite part of building, I just don't have the mindset for it. I love working collaboratively to solve problems. I get knots in the stomach when I have to tell somebody that they're going to have to redo the work they just spent all day on.

  4. nynick | | #5

    I had an interesting conversation with my architect recently and was telling her I was getting some push back in the planning stages from the builder I am planning to use. She told me it's MY house and I should make that clear. She also told me that if I wanted to throw her under the bus and blame her, go right ahead.

  5. Expert Member
    Michael Maines | | #6

    Were your requests in writing or verbal? After a few decades in this business, I have learned that if you want something done the way you want, you should really show it in a picture (for me, that's usually a drawing). If you can't do that, put it in writing. Spoken words are convenient for discussion but are usually forgotten (or ignored) immediately after the conversation is done. I mention this because if you're getting unapproved substitutions this early in the process, you will probably have more as the project progresses.

    I don't recommend commodity OSB sheathing but if you use it, or CDX, the seams may need to be primed, depending on the tape used. I recommend using a tape and primer system that has gone through accelerated aging testing to ensure it will remain adhered for the foreseeable future.

  6. Expert Member
    Akos | | #7

    If the budget allows, having the architect oversee these details could be your best way forward. Beside the knowledge they bring, most are incredibly fussy (to a fault) even with the smallest of details and have no qualms about getting them implemented exactly the way they are on the drawing.

    If you read through lot of the discussion on this site, the difference between a builder home and pretty good house is mostly small details. These are not hard to get right, do take a bit more time but are well worth it in the end.

    P.S. The next battle after taping the sheathing is properly flashing windows. Make sure to read up on it as it is easy to make it look good but still do it incorrectly.

  7. ownerfred | | #8

    Thanks all for the advice. This is incredibly helpful. I am meeting on site with the builder, framer and supplies person on Friday. I will use the info provided to advocate for myself. Might even have some charts/diagrams with me lol

    1. Expert Member
      DCcontrarian | | #9

      Another way to prepare yourself is to read the installation instructions for the wrap they've used. Almost certainly it says nothing about double-wrapping being an approved installation. You've got to follow the manufacturer's instructions!

  8. jollygreenshortguy | | #11

    As a designer, I welcome input from the builder regarding alternatives. They may know things I don't. But I consider these suggestions only. If a suggestion sounds like a good or better solution than the one I originally proposed then I have the following conversation with the builder and client together, at the same time.
    "The work was bid based on the following solution. (Describe it.) You are proposing an alternative. Builder, how much time and/or money will this save you? ... builder responds ... Okay, Builder, you and Client need to determine how much of that savings is going back to the client. Then I will be happy to approve the solution."

    1. Expert Member
      BILL WICHERS | | #12

      I would add to your discussion something about the proposed solution not meeting the specification, or potentially causing problems with another phase of the project down the road. That's pretty much the same discussion I have whenever any of my subs propose an alternate from whatever was in the original design. Sometimes the alternate is a good idea (save time, but no downside), other times it won't work for the application, or will mess up a future stage of the project (such as moving some pipes to avoid some bends, but then the new location would block something that hasn't been installed yet).

      I always tell my crews and subs that we're all a team with the goal of building a functioning building for our customer when we're done. Some discussion of other ideas is good, but it's important to remember that the design team and the owner are the "bosses", at ultimately any changes that are made should not detract from the functionality of the original design unless the owner signs off, understands the impact, and typically gets some kind of cost savings out of it on the project. I would not compromise the design for any reason other than either cost savings to the end customer (and even then, only if the customer wanted to make that tradeoff), or if some material needed wasn't available and we had to substitute to keep the project schedule on track.

      Bill

  9. nynick | | #13

    I would keep in mind this is really at the beginning of the build. As has been said before, if they're doing what they want now, it enables them to do what they want later.

    Get control of YOUR house and they way you want it built.

  10. ownerfred | | #15

    Hi all. Wanted to update you all and also get some advice. The builder was receptive to my comments and wanted me to explain to the subs what needed to be done. I took print outs of Tyvek instructions as suggested (house wrap and flashing!). We settled on me providing the materials and they will execute for taping up the seams.

    I am settling on the 3M 8067 Tape and Hi-Strength 90 Spray Adhesive from Amazon since delivery can be tomorrow. Now I am trying to figure out the right width of tape to buy. I am thinking some 4" for the corners and 2" for the straights? Any thoughts?

    1. kyle_r | | #16

      Personally, I would use at least 3”

      1. ownerfred | | #19

        Will take your advice. Thx!

    2. Expert Member
      Michael Maines | | #17

      2" tape is fine for straight joints. It can also work for corners but sometimes it takes two pieces so 3" or 4" would be better. Builders are often familiar with Zip tape, which is usually 3 3/4" wide.

      1. ownerfred | | #20

        Will upgrade to make life simple. Thanks!

    3. Expert Member
      Akos | | #18

      I would get some wider tape (6" or 9") for the sheathing to foundation joint and window sill plans if you are not using the Tyvek flex wrap. I typically use 3" tape for sheathing but 2" can work in a pinch.

      3m8067 stick reasonably well to OSB if rolled with a J roller but you'll probably have a difficult time convincing the subs to do it. Spray adhesive is probably easier.

      From the installation manual, the important part for rough openings is on P.29/30. Make sure you understand how these go especially the layering (ie WRB flap above window is left loose and lapped over the window nail fin AFTER the window is installed, sill flashing tape goes over the house wrap not the other way around.)

      https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/performance-building-solutions/public/documents/en/install-guide-single-family-wrb-and-flashing-after-wrb-43-d101048-enus.pdf

      If your house has some ugly intersection (balconies, roof to wall intersections, bump outs) make sure to read up on these as these are common leak points for houses that are very difficult to fix down the road.

      1. ownerfred | | #21

        Thanks Akos for helping me navigate this. I printed those same instructions and provided them to the framer. I will follow up to make sure it is understood.

        The house does have those ugly intersections. What should I be searching for?

        1. Expert Member
          Akos | | #23

          JLC and FHB are a good source for some of these details. I would search there for each item for example for sidewall roof intersection:

          https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/roofing/roofing-details-that-work_o
          https://cdnassets.hw.net/eb/22/759fbebe4448a75202131783b645/0319-jlc-feat-roofing-03-rev-2-all.jpg

          BSC is also a good source for a lot of details ie masonry over bumpout:

          https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-122-if-you-want-save-cashflash

    4. Jason_K | | #25

      Make sure to read (and share) the taping instructions for the Tyvek. At least with my builder, they were used to using 2" tape with standard HomeWrap. But the install instructions specify 3" for DrainWrap. I had to point that out (and order the tape myself). Even then, they used 2" in a few places.

      As much as we'd like to assume folks read and know the instructions, I'm learning that's not a safe assumption to make

  11. user-5946022 | | #22

    I think you are doing the right thing, but wanted to chime in here with one issue. By you "taking over" this portion of a critical building assembly - providing the materials & instructing the subs, you are essentially giving your builder an out on long term warranty. If something leaks, or if the ACH does not meet either code or your contract, the builder can just blame it on this step, and say you took over this step, so he/she is no longer responsible.

    That does not mean that I think you should not do what you are doing. However, if there is some way to integrally involve the builder, and to confirm in writing the builder is still responsible for meeting code, contract and warranty obligations it would be helpful to you.

    All of that said, depending upon your contract and the specific conditions, in some cost plus contracts you bear the cost of the builder meeting code & contract obligations, and it sounds like the steps you are taking will enhance the chances of meeting those obligations. Just remember some builders will use anything as an excuse. In regards to warranty obligations, again, some builders will use anything as an excuse, and most 3rd party warranties are not worth the paper they are written on.

    Also, presumably you are paying your builder to manage their subs and the process (usually a percentage, an hourly rate, a flat fee or a combination). In this case, YOU are the one ending up managing the subs, so think about what, if any consideration you are going to get for that. Maybe the consideration is nothing more than builder maintains all responsibility for code, contract and warranty issues and cannot use this as an excuse. But that also means the builder cannot check out of this process and leave it to you.

    Also it sounds like your approach is to have the materials installed in accordance with manufacturer written requirements. If so, that is code minimum. Thus, if you get any pushback on material or labor cost, delays, or other issues, remind the builder he /she is responsible for meeting code, and that meeting code is the bare minimum legally allowed.

    Good luck. And know that many of us here feel your pain. It seems unfathomable that you would be more knowledgeable than the professionals you hire, but such is the state of construction these days...this is just the first of many issues you are going to have on this journey of constructing your home, and some of them you may not discover until a year or more after you move in...

    1. Jason_K | | #24

      Edit: Sorry, looks like I messed up my nesting. Reply is for the OP, not the comment directly above!
      ---

      I had a similar issue come up recently with my build. Had very similar specifications -- taped OSB seams with Tyvek DrainWrap (instead of commercial wrap).

      Framers wrapped the first floor sheathing with the lumber yard-provided wrap without taping the seams, even though the DrainWrap was on site (glad they didn't use it, though, as they would have had to just rip that off and we'd have to order more). Then the builder bought Zip tape rather than 3M 8067 as discussed, which the framers used. Zip doesn't stick as well as the 8067 (at least not to the OSB on our house).

      We ended up pulling off all the Zip tape and having the framers re-tape. What I learned:

      * 3M 8067 sticks better than Zip to OSB
      * 8067 sticks far better if you use a J-roller. Framers/contractors aren't likely to use one.
      * Pick your battles. I ended up doing a lot of the taping work, just to ensure it was done/right.

      I'd also suggest 4" tape based on my experience. 3" tape wasn't wide enough to do a good job on corners. It worked well for the straight seams though.

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