Haven fire suppression system
AJ__
| Posted in General Questions on
Does anyone have any experience with this product? It was recommended by our local fire chief as an alternative to sprinklers. For our small house, it looks like the perfect solution.
https://haven-firesafety.com/
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Replies
Alex,
A couple of questions:
Is it a new, or an existing house?
is there a requirement some for of system be installed?
Hi Malcom
It's a new build 980sq ft, slab on grade. There's no requirement for a system. It's a secondary suite about 50ft away from the main house higher up the hillside. Our water supply is creek which dries up in summer and we run off storage tanks, water supply lines enter through the basement of the main house. Sprinklers would require additional an additional storage tank as well as cost of sprinkler system itself. The last few summers have seen no rain from June to September and fire danger is very high for most of summer, chainsaw and open fire bans island wide. We also experience to power outages a minimum of 3x in winter, which means no water would reach the new building.
Steve,
I'm no expert, but I have taken a bit of an interest in fire suppression systems because of my role developing p0licy for our local Fire Commission. When you break down the causes of structure fires, and look at the most common ones - smoking and other combustibles like candles, electric faults, cooking fires, heating appliances - it's worth thinking about whether any of them are likely, especially in a newly built house.
To me the usefulness of fire suppression systems is in older risky homes, or among occupants who engage in risky behaviours. I don't see much 0f a case for them in new construction.
Malcolm you're the balanced voice of reason amongst the one sided opinions I get from many of the people I'm dealing with in person. Are you a builder or a designer? Many new builds here have sprinklers and are even mandatory in certain communities, even though these properties often make liberal use of combustible exterior materials. We'll have no gas and don't smoke, so the main risk would be from cooking fires and electrical faults, both of which as you suggest are highly unlikely.
Alex,
I'm both. I trained a as an architect, but for several decades have run a design/build firm.
All code requirements for safety are trade-offs. A house built of non-combustable materials is safer than one made of wood. A house with a fire suppression system is safer than one without one, six foot high balcony railings would be much safer than the current height mandated - and on and on. What the sweet spot is for when we have gone far enough to mitigate the risk that it isn't a significant one is an ongoing exercise.
In the absence of requirements it is an individual decision. I made it by looking at the statistics. The chance of surviving a residential fire is about 99.5%. Sprinklers reduce fatalities by about 2/3rds. So with sprinklers that moves to 99.8%.
Malcolm,
Would it be possible to speak to you away from the site? I would be interested in having you review our plans, for a fee of course.
http://www.malcolmtaylordesign.ca
Malcolm, I came across your post while looking up fire suppression systems. I see you worked on point -no-point. Small world; I went there often as a kid. Fantastic job!
Thanks Carson, I hope you have good memories of the time you spent there.
I started doing work at Point-no-Point in the mid-90s. Ended up building nine of the cabins and renovating the rest, before bowing out two years ago. It's beautiful spot. The last big project I did there was this new bridge:
I've never seen these in action. But hey, if the building official will accept it as an alternative to sprinklers... To get what you need, sure.. the concept is a good idea, I just personally feel it might not be the best thing for actual fire protection if not placed carefully.
From my experience, 6lbs of ABC drychem (monoammonium phosphate) is pretty effective at extinguishing fires, but my experience is all with a directed steam (ie a handheld fire extinguisher with an operator pushing the powder to the seat of the fire). With today's heat release rates of materials, I'm very curious to see how a ceiling diffusion/whole room deluge type of dry chem system would perform in a more typical home scenario. Even kitchen drychem suppression systems have directed nozzles pointed at the potential hazards and also have much bigger capacity tanks as well.
They've posted a couple videos on YouTube, but in my opinion those are
kind of ideal scenarios. They also state it works in up to a 16x16 room... I'd like to see how the unit performs 8' away from the fire and with the doors in the room open. I can elaborate on this if you'd like. But I mean if you put one directly over your cooking range, it looks like it would perform very well should a fire event happen while cooking. I don't want to knock it too much, it looks like it does what it says it does, it's a Canadian company, and it's financially backed by Manjit Minhas who I have a crush on so I don't want to upset her should we ever meet.
I personally would prefer a residential sprinkler system. For aesthetic and fire protection reasons... But hey I'm a mechanical guy at heart, I think things like sprinkler systems are fun.
Just my 2 cents.
Jamie
2 valuable cents, thank you. You make some very good points. My reply to Malcolm outlines our set up which is more unusual than some. Our floor plan lends itself well to the 16x16 room sizes they suggest. A sprinkler system would come in at around 10x the cost once we factor in the additional water storage capacity required in summer.
I can’t say I’ve ever used this particular product, but I do work with fancy fire suppression systems fairly often at work (I design critical facilities like datacenters). My first thought was that this product was a clean agent system, which are gaseous and leave no residue. Clean agent systems are also a problem for living things since they work by displacing oxygen. This system is dry chemical based though.
Dry chemical is messy and a huge pain to clean up. In a residential setting, a house with white powder everywhere is at least still a house though, so it’s better than the alternative.
There is another type of fire suppression system you may be interested in. There are fogging-type water systems that very rapidly spray a very fine water mist throughout a protected space. These systems work on high pressure, usually with a compressed gas cylinder, and run the water through special nozzles. The resulting fog-like water mist works to limit the spread of fires and sometimes can extinguish fires completely. I spec these systems for generator rooms sometimes when I can’t use a CO2 based system. The water mist systems use less water and might be an alternative for you. They’re not exactly cheap though.
Bill
Are you aware of any particular mist systems that might make sense for single family residential, even at a greater cost? I'm in NJ, and there are no code requirements for a sprinkler system. Unfortunately, my wife seems to like to light a couple of scented candles, particularly when guests come over. I'm definitely interested in options that can maximize life safety. (I've tried to affect occupant behavior, but I have no influence there. :-)
Christopher,
We have frequent power outages and my wife used to load the house up with candles. I managed to wean her off them with these.
https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=electric+candles&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_cz6neaF4wIVAr3sCh1Peg2yEAAYASAAEgL34PD_BwE&hvadid=231052748359&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001623&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=313982894682519954&hvtargid=kwd-362109433197&hydadcr=23339_10308591&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_94x8u2uiky_e
+1 for LED candles. My wife uses them too. LED candles are "cat proof".
I'm not aware of any small-scale water mist suppression systems. Every system I've ever been involved with has been custom designed for the site it's for. You pick heads for the size of the covered area and the installation height, you size the pipe for a flow rate based on the number of heads (its a GPM per SQFT arrangement), then the pressure boost setup is sized for the overall system. You'd probably be at least $5-10k to put in a small system in a house, maybe more. I've only ever done systems in commerical facilities, usually where the alternative is a clean agent system like FM200 or Inergen, both of which are VERY expensive.
You don't want a CO2 system either. Any of the clean agent systems required detectors and alarms (first detector bell, discharge warning horns, etc.), not things you want for a house. You're pretty much looking at "regular" water systems, the mist systems, or dry chemical like the device you linked to for use in a house.
Bill
Oh ok, I remember following the energy model thread on your build.
Malcolm has some interesting points to head, but I see your lack of water situation. A watermist system as Bill mentioned, I think is the future of residential fire protection... Some day...but it's still in it's infancy at the moment and I'm not sure they even have flush paintable nozzle heads available yet like they do for residential sprinklers.
To be honest, those Haven's at $120 a pop is a cheap form of automatic fire protection and if it helps you sleep at night, by all means. I think they're a good idea. Unless it causes you more anxiety thinking having to Decon your whole house if one discharges by accident. (Dry chem is a royal mess)
I'll assume your layout is the same layout from your energy model thread. I took a look and I would suggest one in the mechanical room and one as close to the range as possible (a higher fire risk area). Your kitchen and living room and entryway is open concept and this is where I see it could be an issue if the unit too far away from the range, it'll most likely shoot past it to the floor and not fill up the cubic area of such a big space.
If you smoke you can place them in the bedrooms if you really want, since smoking materials is the leading cause of residential fires, but I mean if you fall asleep with a cigarette in bed, you'll most likely be good and dead before the ceiling extinguisher goes off (sorry to be grim). But at least you saved the house or the people in the other room. Maybe place one over the couch too (another high smoker fire risk area).
I also suggest keeping a portable fire extinguisher somewhere in the house as well for fun.
Yes that's me. I think given what's been posted your suggestion of the kitchen and mech room is a good compromise. We don't smoke and there's no gas appliances or naked flames.
I sent an email to the Haven today inquiring about using this to extinguish a fire in a mechanical room that will house a battery pack. They sent me a lawyered down response as follows: "For liability reasons we never actually claim the Haven will extinguish a fire, we claim the Haven will suppress the fire to give you additional time." They did not specifically address using this for a battery fire. Does this appear to be an appropriate product to address this concern?
Jonathan,
What kind of batteries are you using? Depending on the chemistry you need different methods.
To extinguish a lithium ion battery, about the only way to put it out is to deuce it in water. This becomes a challenge with high voltage packs.
For lead acid both CO2 and dry power work.
Akos,
It is lithium, either Sonnen or Tesla.
In that case powder fire suppression won't do much. The idea is that lithium packs are safe enough and not worry about fire suppression. Iron phosphate is safer but you still have 10 to 20kWh of energy that has to go somewhere if things go wrong.
Sprinklers are about the only thing that will work.
Instead of fire suppression, getting some additional fire rating around them is probably your best bet. 2 layers of 5/8 drywall in the room with interlinked smoke alarms would give you more time and warning in the unlikely event that something happens.
Also keep in mind that batteries are like people, they like to be nice and comfortable. If you want them to last, keep them in an area that is between 15C to 25C.
Thankfully, I have plenty of leftover ComfortBoard sitting around! I will add a smoke detector in their too and probably a camera. I have been living with batteries in my garage for a few years, but I am a little more concerned about having them in the habitable part of the house. But with these extra precautions, I should be able to sleep fine.
Water-based sprinkler systems are only supposed to stop or limit the SPREAD of a fire. They don't generally PUT OUT a fire. The idea is the sprinklers keep things under control until the fire department can get there to actually put the fire out. Clean agent systems are intended to PUT OUT a fire, but they are very expensive, and there are a lot of safety requirements involved since they are hazardous (displacing oxygen will put the people out along with the fire is how I usually describe it to customers).
I agree with Akos -- your best option for a battery like you describe is a fire-rated room. If this is to be a garage, two layers of 5/8" type X drywall on BOTH SIDES of the studs all the way around the room will give you a 2 hour fire rating (one layer on each side is a 1 hour wall). You can go up to three layers on both sides for a 3 hour assembly, but you end up with a really massive wall. You also want to do the ceiling the same way as the walls. This contains the fire. Fill the stud cavities with mineral wool for additional protection. Install a smoke detector system with the dual-sensor type (IR and ionization, thermal also helps if you don't have many combustible materials in the room) heads in the garage and remote annunciators in your house, especially in/near bedrooms. The idea is to detect the fire quickly, contain it for a period of time, and be LOUD and ANNOYING to occupants so that everyone knows to get out.
When I design commercial facilities I specify block walls for generator and battery rooms, along with a steel roof. This is the safest option. Not too nice in a house though. Just think like this:
1- If there is a fire, how is it detected and alarmed? First priority is letting people KNOW to GET OUT.
2- Once things are burning, how well is it contained? (fire rating of walls, and doors, for the room). This gives people TIME to GET OUT.
3- Is any protective system in place to control the spread of the fire (sprinklers, etc.)? This limits the chances the fire gets out of control before the fire department arrives. You're protecting the rest of your structure, basically.
4- Does you insurance policy cover the potential damage you might have after 1, 2, and 3 have been met.
My job is usually to make sure my customer doesn't get to step 4. Insurance companies love me, I help make sure they don't have to pay out claims :-)
Bill
Definitely want to avoid #4. Thanks Bill.
Did you or anyone install the Haven Fire Suppression Devices? If so, any feedback on them?
Can anyone please provide contact email addresses for Haven Fire Suppression. They seem to have moved from Ontario, Canada to the U.S.
I haven't installed them but here is the email [email protected]
Thanks Alex. I will try emailing them.
I see that the FAQ on their website says:
"In the event that it "goes off", what is the clean up like?
Clean up is done with a vacuum. Unlike water, there is no damage from the non-toxic dry-chem agent used in the HAVEN."
It’s basically a permanently installable dry chemical type fire extinguisher. If it goes off, you get a powdery substance all over, and inside, of everything in the area. It’s difficult to ever get all of the powder out of everything, there always seems to be a little bit left. The alternative is your stuff is all ash in a fire though, so cleaning up the dry powder is a better option :-)
Bill
I read some of the posts on this topic that are minimizing the risk of fire on new buildings, but i could not disagree more.
First even with everything built to code from electrical to dry wall etc.. it does not mean that some trade made a small mistake that goes undetected so even if the inspector sign everything is good you may still end up having a freak accident. Then you may take home an item or appliance that can cause fire. You can also have a kitchen fire even without gas, if you ignite cooking oil and blow the bottle you will be on a lot of trouble in no time. Freak accidents can still happens and even if the fire will self extinguish by its own in 10 minutes because of the material the home is built you can still have tenths of thousand of dollars of damage in forniture and fixtures. Not mentioning that 5 -10 minutes of smoke from cooking oils will require to repaint half of your home and wash almost everything is in it, just to get rid of the smell. Any insurance payment will not compensate for all the hassle.
These extinguishing devices cost about 250$ and are super easy to install, having a few of them in the critical spots of the home it would be a no brainer.