Lapolla Industries Closed-Cell Spray Foam
woobagoobaa
| Posted in Green Products and Materials on
Looks to be using the Solstice blowing agent. Claims ability to spray a thicker layer with reduced fire hazard.
Hoping people are able to share their experiences with this product and any issues encountered.
Thanks
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They were one of the first to market with HFO-blown foam and although I avoid foam whenever possible for environmental, health and life safety reasons, when I have to use foam, it's been one of the products I spec. Or used to be. The manufacturer, Lapolla, was purchased by Icynene, and they practice deceptive marketing techniques so I no longer recommend them. You can search GBA for many examples, and I have experienced them myself. But by all accounts, the product itself works as advertised. Just don't trust any of their claims about R-value--R-6 or R-6.5/in is a fair guess at what the aged value will be, and R-6 of foam will perfect exactly the same as R-6 of another insulation material, as long as there is an air control layer in the assembly.
We used that in February. Our installer didn't do an awesome job, so they had to come back for a second pass. It was a little smelly for a bit after (not horrible, and not the rotting fish smell that folks worry about), so we kept attic windows open and fans blowing when we could. (you can see pictures in my posting history of what it looked like when it wasn't carefully installed). We did two inches at the roof slopes and one inch on gable walls, and then put slightly thicker dry wall (rated to code for covering up foam) against gable walls and r-23 rockwool in the slopes over the foam. When it got warm, the smell came back a little (even though the rockwool was now over it) but never was bad enough to come down into the living space, and has since stopped off-gassing.
We did see a difference in heat retention upstairs (but we had NO insulation before, so ymmv)... it has not made a difference in summer temperatures, which still tend to run 2 degrees warmer than downstairs. (Our upstairs used to be noticeably colder than downstairs in winter).
Thanks for the info. 1910 ... how long did it take until the off-gassing smell stopped? This is the issue that gives me most pause using CCSF.
We're planning full cavity rafter fill for underside of shed roof and a gambrel wall. Over head attic will be blown cellulose. Need to get roof to R4o+ (Zone 5) with 6-8" cavity was the deciding factor.
Here are two other products to look for:
https://www.demilec.com/products/closed-cell-insulation/heatlok-hfo-high-lift-0
https://gaco.com/product-details/gacoonepass-low-gwp/
I have the Gaco product in our attic. Our installers had previously sprayed both the Lapolla and Demilec HFO products and said that the Gaco gave them the best spray/thickness control. Everywhere there was good access to spray, the foam went down nice, flat and even. In tight spots there is a bit of lumpiness still because you can't move the gun nicely. They compensated for this generally by increasing the thickness.
A good installer is more important than the product. Good installers will be very serious about ventilation, reentry times, and the PPE they use. I have seen a correlation between poor installations and lax PPE use. The guys who spray whole jobs in half masks and goggles are cutting corners. People doing this work for a living should really be using a supplied air setup for most of the job.
Have an agreed ventilation plan. How many fans, where, and how long they will leave them running. They should be running during the job and 24 to 48 hours minimum afterward. If this is renovation work, set up the fans to exhaust and open windows to protect the rest of the house.
If spraying overhead, everything horizontal needs to be covered or it will have specks of foam. Review the draping prior to start of spraying.
Edit: One more thing to spot good installers is that they fully understand the requirements for ignition and thermal barriers. This is a something that gets left out of a lot of jobs. See: https://41z32e1503dj3gyqe3151089-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Brochure-GacoWallFoam-Ignition-and-Thermal-Barriers-w.pdf
Another closed cell product I was quoted today ... Carlisle One Zero
https://www.carlislesfi.com/products/closed-cell-one-zero/
I see very little mention of the Carlisle spray foam products on GBA or elsewhere. Anyone able to provide the history of this product? Thanks
It wasn't really that long before the offgassing stopped. Like maybe two weeks? And like I said, it was never strong enough to go to the second floor (where we sleep). It did return briefly when it got warmer, but only faintly.
And even when it was noticeable in the attic, it wasn't oppressive or headache inducing. We were up there working for hours many many days adding polyiso foam strips to our rafters and doing cut and cobble rockwool work.
So you're saying you would have some foam against roof and then cellulose against it in netting? You'd definitely want an fire-retardant paint against foam, then (unless you're then drywalling)
I agree with Matt that who does the installation is key. And definitely a lot of companies downplay the need for ignition or thermal barriers because it adds so much to the cost. I also found the quotes varied by many thousands, so if you can, get a lot of quotes, not just two.
Ecomate also claims their polyurethane foams are free of HFCs, HCFCs, and CFCs and their blowing agent has zero GWP and no VOCs. https://foamsupplies.com/ecomate/
I've settled on a contractor which will be using Demelic Heatlok HFO High Lift closed cell.
Some concern with twisted R value marketing ... "Our first product to leverage ultra-low global warming potential blowing agent; combines an R value of 7.5 with a 6.5” lift, so you can achieve an R-49 in a single pass."
But an ICC report seems closer to R value reality. Table 1 here ...
https://www.demilec.com/sites/demilec.com/files/2019-11/ESR-4073%20%281%29.pdf
Table 1 confirms R-7.5/in--what are you seeing otherwise? Keep in mind that ICC testing is done after six months of carefully controlled aging of the foam. Over time in real-world conditions the blowing agent will be replaced by air and the foam will eventually end up closer to still air at R-5.6/in.
Ah, the R value per inch increases with thickness. Is that typical?
More importantly, can you point me to a source which discusses R value degradation of ccsf over time?
Thank you
A good start is to review spec sheets, looking for a LTTR value. Knock off perhaps 10% it isn't using the CAN/ULC S770 standard. Then realize that this "long term" is only 5 years, so use an even lower number. Also consider that temperature can have a big R value effect (I haven't seen data for closed cell spray foams). Too complex? - I'd use Michael's R5.6.
Job completed. Demilec Heatlok HFO High Lift. Low GWP blowing agent. 5" to underside of roof wall (overhead will be cellulose filled). Good even coverage. I can not detect any smell.
What’s going on at the chimney? You need a 2” clearance to ALL insulation. The correct clearance is show in this photo.
How do you plan to ventilate the space above the ceiling? Do you have ventilation channels behind the ccspf?
Plan on making the ceiling drywall as airtight as possible. Plan on sealing the drywall to the ccSPF. It looks like that will be doable with 1 part foam. Otherwise That will be a huge leakage path.
The pic is of the underside of a gambrel wall. Over head attic will be well air sealed wallboard then filled with cellulose. Attic is gable and ridge vented. Chimney is mineral wool wrapped.
Update. An air handler had to go in the over-head attic, so we called back the closed cell crew to extend all the way to the ridge (keep the air handler / ducting within the conditioned envelope). Attic closed cell also had to be covered with intumescent paint.