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Community and Q&A

Rheem’s condensing water heaters (storage)

minnmike | Posted in Green Products and Materials on

Hi,

My 14-year-old electric water heater is starting to look a little long in the tooth. Time to upgrade.

So, I’m looking for intel on Rheem’s Professional Prestige Series: High Efficiency Condensing Power Direct Vent (RHE50) or its sister sold by Home Depot – Rheem EcoSense High Efficiency Power Direct Vent (ECORHE50).

I can’t find any online reviews of either product (save one favorable review on HD’s site).

For several reasons, I’m looking at a high efficiency storage water heater instead of tankless.

The only other condensing unit appears to be AO Smiths Vertex (very expensive, not so good reviews).

You guys got any cheap advice?

Thanks
Mike

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-EcoSense-High-Efficiency-Power-Direct-Vent-48-gal-Tall-6-Year-40-000-BTU-Natural-Gas-Water-Heater-ECORHE50/203856743

http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-prestige-series-high-efficiency-condensing-power-direct-vent

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Replies

  1. mr_stop | | #1

    I'm in the same boat. Did you ever find anything out?

  2. Richard Beyer | | #2

    You both should join this Group on LinkedIn. "RESNET BPI"
    David Butler and it's member's have tremendous insight on the mechanicals of all water heaters since many of it's members are technically experts on this topic.
    I was once in the market for the most energy efficient water heater with the least break downs and by unanimous vote it was decided this was the best water heater.

    http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/accelera.html

    It does cost more than the HD and Lowes products. After hearing the stories over multiple failures and noise generation from the box store brands the decision was clear.

    This same water heater is mentioned in another GBA article.
    "“My Steibel Eltron heat-pump water heater keeps my basement dehumidified,” Rosenbaum said. “The peak relative humidity in the basement during the summer was 60%. Yes, a heat-pump water heater steals energy in the winter, but it’s good in the summer.”

    https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/it-s-not-about-space-heating

    In this GBA article the choice was different...
    https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/deciding-water-heater

  3. user-2890856 | | #3

    Another condensing unit is HTPs Phoenix Light Duty . Also modulating by the way with stainless steel construction . Same money as AO Smith over rated stuff . One very large distributor just dumped the Smith line for HTP solutions .

  4. mr_stop | | #4

    Richard B,
    I don't think a heat pump water heater makes too much sense (at least for me). While we don't use a ton of hot water based on my estimates, I have a family with 2 older children. I understand that recovery time could be an issue with these units. Additionally, I don't necessarily need the additional cooling load in my already cool basement. Finally, as I live in cheap gas land, I still have gas heat and no PV I don't think the switch to electric would make sense.

  5. mr_stop | | #5

    Richard M,
    Based on your reco in my other post I looked real hard at the HTP Phoenix Light Duty. On paper, it looks awesome. However, I have pretty much scratched them from my list.

    What is really turning me off about HTP is "the fine print" in their warranty. If you read through the warranty, it is essentially worthless. The unit needs to be installed and maintained exactly as prescribed and run with exacting water conditions (e.g. water hardness between 6-8 gpg), If it isn't, the warranty can be refused. While I couldn't find any real world reviews or comments on the Phoenix it sounds like HTP has had considerable issues with their boilers and poor company support. Most alarming is how HTP has responded (or failed to respond) to warranty and support issues. Most notably using their wiggle clauses in the warranty.

    Unfortunately poor manufacturer support doesn't seem to be unique in the industry. I agree, based on reviews that I read, that AO Smith and the Vertex in particular seem to have several quality issues with owners left hanging. Rheem sounds slightly better, but not without it's share of detractors. Of course, there is some bias in the system when looking at online reviews, but you can draw some common themes.

  6. user-2890856 | | #6

    Brad , That is a shame because all water heaters require those conditions pretty much to be successful . problem is the fact that over the years consumers notoriously don't attend to the equipment in their homes as they should . HTP uses quality materials and since their units are not truly cheap to produce they opted for a detailed warranty covering them from replacing quality units when folks don't attend to them . It kinda sucks when protecting yourself from claims that really had nothing to do with your manufacture nor negligence can hurt your sales . Good luck with the Rheem .

  7. Richard Beyer | | #7

    Brad you may consider a gas fired hot water on demand system if your consumption is low. I've read numerous positive responses for Rinnai systems. Just an opinion..

    http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater

  8. minnmike | | #8

    I'm still undecided.

    Electric Hybrid is not for me.

    I still have no intel on durability and real-world performance of the Rheem condensing unit.

    Older Vertex is panned online and by apparent proffesionals. Unclear whether new (say 2013 and later) have the same problems.

    I'm very glad to learn about the Phoenix Light Duty model (also sold under Westinghouse brand). That unit seems to be a good fit on paper for my needs, but I'm wary again with virtually no product reviews to be found.

    Keep digging.
    Thx
    Mike

  9. user-2890856 | | #9

    Michael,
    A bit more about HTPs Phoenix Light Duty . Other water heaters have a burner under the tank , not very efficient , but all we've had from manufacturers except HTP . Their heat exchanger is a 5+" Cupronickel tube that runs upward through the center of the water column then 2 1 1/4" tubes come off the top and run back down through the outer water column between the tank and center tube , this is where the water is coldest as the water heated by the center part of the exchanger has risen to the top of the tank , by the time those tubes get back to the bottom they can then deliver the last of the usable BTUs to the coldest water . This is a patented heat exchanger only available in HTP products .
    All stainless is not equal . HTP uses 316L stainless steel where others use various grades . As far as stainless goes 316L is about the best you'll find . HTP is the 2nd largest purchaser of 316L SS , the only entity that purchases more 316L SS than HTP is the US NAVY .
    I am a plumbing and heating consultant / designer / installer and like HTP believe that the best way to be profitable is to design and put a GOOD product in people's homes . I research every product that I use to vet whether or not when I install it . Those products that look as if they will tarnish my reputation or will have me spending my time doing warranty work as opposed to profitable work will not be used . Since I have been using HTP , 6 years faithfully ,the units themselves have proven to be exactly what HTP claims they are . I must add that even before I used HTP I always took wqater quality precautions to protect my customers investment and counciled them on how , when and what to service annually .
    Funny thing about the internet is that when there is something bad to say about a product it is very easy to find , when something is difficult to find in a search it more often than not is a good thing .
    The origins of HTP are pretty unique . One man looked at heating equipment and had an idea to make it better . He found the right people and made it happen . In an attempt to keep his product of higher quality and compete with the garbage he included specific warranty limitations for his tanks . That being that if water quality and maintenance are not performed he will not replace your unit . Kinda like every manufacturer with the exception that he tells you right up front what is necessary to insure years of service as opposed to making garbage , taking a gamble and wriggling out of the warranty 65% of the time because the homeowner did not replace the anode rods and / or drain the garbage off the bottom of the glas lined carbon steel tank .
    Other manufacturers actually use HTP manufactured tanks and heat exchangers after vetting the quality of what is available . I doubt the owner of HTP (sole propreitor) would sell any of his units in a capacity to directly compete with HTP in the same platform . The Phoenix Light duty has been mass purchased by a radiant heating manufacturer and a module of controls and mixing devices added to be used as a heating source for radiant heating , that unit would be the Warmboard Warmsource unit . I will look into the Westinghouse unit you mentioned . Whil it may look like the Light Duty on the outside , I highly doubt that it is the same .
    I urge you or anyone that is researching units to purchase and install to address the water quality to be heated by any manufacturers product , also follow the maintenance recommendations because that is their out on the warranty claim . Believe me , I am intimate with the process being a plumber . A warranty is only as good as it's limitations . You can buy a car with a 100,000 mile warranty and it can give up on you at 60,000 because you only changed the oil 3 times and used terrible fuel , good luck getting a new car under the warranty . Well , I have news for everybody , all manufacturers do the same thing , some just build better products and can enforce their warranty with conviction and righteousness .
    By the way , try to locate how many water heaters that are not tankless that have modulating capability at present . HTP has offered this for quite a long time .

  10. mr_stop | | #10

    From what I can tell, the Westinghouse is exactly the same. It shares specs, marketing materials and manuals. The HTP name is even shown on the literature. This is fairly common among manufacturers serving different markets. In a past life, I used to re-brand products from the industrial market for use in the consumer market.

    I agree, to a reasonable point, that a manufacturer needs to protect itself against gross misuse. I just find that HTP is going quite overboard in its fine print. It also goes contrary to the marketing of the units durability due to its stainless steel tank. I surmise that you are correct that most homeowners will likely not maintain their water heaters. Rather than trying to change this behavior, shouldn't HTP (and other manufacturers) design for this? The marketing literature seems to imply it. It isn't until you read the fine print that it turns out differently.

  11. minnmike | | #11

    Thank you, Richard, great information. I'm willing to pay for quality and, in this case, the warranty does not deter me.

    Besides the HTP web site, where do you suggest I find recommendations on the HTP light duty water heaters?

    Do you know long this product has been on the market?

    BTW, here's the product links I found:
    http://www.menards.com/main/p-2415110-c-8690.htm
    and
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main/ref=olp_merch_name_1?ie=UTF8&asin=B00OY10ZUQ&isAmazonFulfilled=0&seller=A3D8KOVT5WADV1

    thx
    Mike

  12. user-2890856 | | #12

    Michael ,

    Thanks for the link . The Phoenix light duty was released about 2 years ago now . I have roughly 40 installed to date and have no complaints as of yet . This makes me confident taking into account that when I installed the Vertex units I had regular calls for service for a myriad of problems , most of the controls issues that were warranty or Rich does not get paid work . Yes , as crazy as it sounds , I vet what I recommend and install . I will not perform this work for those whom don't follow my and the manufacturers recommendations however . This has been a highly successful and dependable unit thus far and I have not heard ANY bad mouthing from within the community which includes end users , distributors , wholesalers or HTP as I am a servicing contractor , really feel like the Maytag repairman when it comes to HTP service work , with the exception of the old Munchkin boilers which HTP gladly replaces without question when the Giannoni heat exchangers crap the bed . I might add that most of those problems could have easily been avoided had installers followed manufacturer recommendations . Hey , maybe that's why the reworded detailed warranty is now in effect . That was a good unit but I have seen it installed in the very worst conditions by what I can only describe as the very worst of installers whom probably should not have been allowed to heat a dollhouse with a hair dryer . I will find out if in fact there are any different components that may be an issue in the Westinghouse branded model for you , you know , like how the big box stores sell Moen and Delta and swear it's the same while everything that I buy has brass components they have plastic . I should have that information for you by tomorrow afternoon .

    Brad
    If you are not willing to spend the same money on a better unit with a 4 year longer warranty I don't know what to tell you . fact is that you should be treating your garbage water regardless of what heater you use . HTP has to enforce these things to offer a better unit . Everyone elses heat excahnger is in fact not a heat exchanger as opposed to a burner under a pot , all they warranty is a tank and the efficiency is terrible at best . HTP puts a highly conductive heat exchanger right in the tank so their efficiencies beat all others right to death . Carbon steel glass lined tank with a tin burner below and a fan that brings in air at one rate and rushes the flue gasses through or a Stainless tank with a generous Cupronickel heat exchanger and a fan that precisely mixes gas and air while modulating down only using the required amount of energy . Choice is clear to me , again enjoy your Rheem . I have a twist on an old saying ,, You don't get what you don't pay for and it will never be what you thought . A Jeep aint a Range Rover and a Rheem aint an HTP . Don't worry though that warranty will certainly be used where as the HTPs probably won't .

  13. mr_stop | | #13

    Richard, I'm in the same boat as Mike. I'm just trying to get information to make an informed decision. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), yours is one of the few voices that I have read talking about this unit. Thanks for clarification on your experience. Yes most of the bad reviews I found regarding HTP were the Munchkin unit. It's somewhat reassuring that the issues may have been limited to this unit. I have actually read the install manuals cover to cover, as I intend to follow the recommendations. Beyond no stories of real life experiences (strange in the era of the web), I became concerned really at the specific water parameters. In particular the recommended range between 5-7 gpg raised alarm as it seems overly specific and to my knowledge unattainable. On the plus side, I did reread the warranty and it just states that hardness must be below 7 gpg.

    Like Mike, I don't mind paying for quality. My preference is long term reliability and serviceability. Unfortunately with little real world information on the HTP and the Rheem, it is difficult to make an informed decision. Caveat Emptor.

    BTW, I saw your work on another post. It's a functional work of art http://mechanical-hub.com/langans.

  14. user-2890856 | | #14

    Brad , Thanks for the compliment . That is a really nice system . That house is pretty big at 7300+ sq ft and has gas bills that code built 2,800 feet houses encounter as per NJNG . Scored a 48 on Hers index yet it uses about 25% the energy as similar sized houses . Must be the terrible radiant floors and Low SEER A/C equipment that actually runs long enough to remove the latent and not have to travel to 70* because the folks are really comfortable at 75* . Did you notice the conditioning equipment right next to that HTP unit ? That house has city water also but with the equipment there is no chlorine smell , taste is real good and TDS is almost non existent . his brother has a house right next door that is 5,400 sq ft and has gas bills that are 50% higher , go figure . Back to the water heaters though ,
    http://www.htproducts.com/literature/Phoenix-LD-Brochure.pdf ,
    http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-prestige-series-high-efficiency-condensing-power-direct-vent . Brad , I don't think it necessary at this point but the fact that the HX is in the tank as opposed to below would account for the much higher recovery of the HTP next to Rheem's dismal recovery rate of less than 50% of the HTP at a 90* rise . Enjoy your Phoenix LD .

    Michael ,

    I spoke to Brad Monahan , HTP's national sales manager . Those Westinghouse units are in fact HTP's , both on the Menards and Amazon sites . They are identical and are of the same quality as an HTP jacketed unit . When you order them from any of the internet vendors they ship out of Freetown Mass , at least the Menards units do . Those prices are nice from Menards and I thank you for pointing them out to me for a couple reasons , first , i was able to identify that my suppliers are charging me entirely too much for all my HTP . Second is that I did in fact feel a bit off when you linked to those because I was not aware this was happening . I told HTP that I would in fact be ordering my Light Duty , the occasional tankless unit and any electrics through Menards and they could explain to the distributors and wholesalers where my dollars were going . i leveraged this information into a stocking distributor pricing schedule for my company . I and my customers thank you as I will pass these savings on to the end user and should be able to sell more work .

  15. mr_stop | | #15

    Richard, My local HTP supplier is below the price of the Westinghouse and Menards. Menards is below right now due to their "rebate." However, shipping mostly offsets those savings.

    Michael, are you installing yourself?

  16. user-2890856 | | #16

    Brad , whereabouts are you located ? The problem I am having at present is a changing of manufacturer rep from one to another a few months ago . When the switch took place my prices magically increased by roughly 15 - 20 % . The wholesaler attempted to state that the change in price was because of this switch but i am learning that this is in fact not the case . At this time I have bid quotes out to 3 wholesalers for the same exact line items in an attempt to keep them honest , come next week someone will no longer get any of Langans dollars , GREED SUCKS .

  17. mr_stop | | #17

    I'm located in Cincinnati, OH. Note, that I'm not pro, so I would hope you could do better.

    There is already a $400-$500 premium on the HTC versus the comparable Rheem RHE50 (~$1,500) and AO Smith 75K BTU Vertex (~$1,600). The only reason I bring this up, is that if you're paying another 15-20%, you may be being better off with the Rheem or AO Smith depending on what the real life expectancy of these units ends up being. Thus, from my own homeowner perspective, making the up-sell to the HTP a much harder proposition.

    I know you can argue quality, efficiency etc, but it's already tough to justify the jump in price to the condensing units let alone the premium of the HTC. Unless you're in a large household and filling up a whirlpool tub every day, the payback period is way long on these units. Using the EnergyGuide specs, I calculated the payback of the RHE50 as 15 years over a 9 year Rheem standard vent model. Unfortunately, the HTP and AO Smith units are measured differently due to their higher BTU, so I can't get an apples to apples payback. However, I would assume that despite the increased efficiency the payback is worse for the HTP due to the increased cost. Of course, that assumes that these units last 15-20 years before needed major service or replacement. In fact, the only reason I'm considering this route, is to get the vent out of my walls and roof and to provide safer operation by separating the combustion from my living space.

    I'm curious on your opinion of life expectancy of these units? Assume all else being equal with water quality specs meeting the HTP standard and regular maintenance (including regular anode replacement on the Rheem and AO smith).

  18. minnmike | | #18

    Brad,

    Yes, I intend to install myself.

    I'm not desperate (for now), so I will likely continue to mull over this decision over into the spring.

    I contacted Home Depot. They are now carrying some, but not all, of the Westinghouse branded HTP equipment. I asked them if I could order the not listed Light Duty Phoenix model and got the bland "sorry not at this time" email.

    thanks for all the advice, gentlemen.
    Mike

  19. user-2890856 | | #19

    Brad , The fine points are as follows : Vertex has a substantial possibility of at least 1 failure in the gas valve or the control board . This failure will leave your family without hot water for at least a day and you will more likely than not pay a labor charge . Vertex and Rheem read water temp in the tank at the bottom or gas valve elevation , this also leaves your family susceptible to a scald hazard due to stratification of hot water to the top of the tank , right where it is drawn from when a faucet is opened . Neither the Rheem or the Vertex come with standard condensate neutralizer , Phoenix does and discharging this waste into your drainage system should it contain metals is a much better option . You already know about the stainless tank which will last for quite a long time , SuperStor indirects have a lifetime warranty , same tank different heat exchanger material . vertex and Rheem will both require anode replacement or you run the risk of not having the 6 year warranty honored , this could well cost you a couple hundred dollars every 2 years for parts and labor Phoenix has no anode rods , it does not need a sacrificial lamb to protect the tank . The Rheem only has 1/2 the recovery of either the Vertex or Phoenix which could quite possibly leave you short on hot water . My expectation on the Phoenix is 20 years with minimal maintenance by way of isolating the tank every 5 years and flushing it with a heat exchanger cleaner times with proper hardness . This really may not be necessary however since every time the Hx heats up it expands and as the tank cools it contracts which basically would not allow scale or anything of the like to crust up the Hx . Please note that new water heater mandates are coming into play real soon here and it will be a whole new ball game . HTP happens to be perched in a comfortable place since all the new stuff is and has been in place for awhile .
    The home Depot comment bothers me . Thanks Mike

  20. mr_stop | | #20

    I have started to rethink my situation and I'm considering going with a tankless unit instead. It seems that I can get the benefits I was looking for (getting combustion out of the basement & some efficiency improvement) at a lower cost. Additionally, they take up less space and have more of a track record. Installation should probably be about a wash between them as I will still need to install venting and upgrade plumbing. I need to verify and calculate, but my gas should be sufficient as I have a 1 1/4" pipe already run which supplies the nearby furnace and existing water heater. I'm aware of the drawbacks of the tankless, but would hope to mitigate them with an installation similar to this: http://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/files/fhbDecJan08.pdf. Additionally, all of my plumbing is within ~20' of the heater.

    Thoughts?

  21. mr_stop | | #21

    Ok, I'm back on the HTP Phoenix LD side again. I contacted the local distributor to check on who performs service on these units. They also said service would be "performed by local plumbing company." The distributor is newer and haven't sold any units yet. Also, I can't find any signs of local installers/ servicers. How is HTP's technical support?

  22. mr_stop | | #22

    You win Richard M. I pulled the trigger on the HTP Phoenix LD :)

  23. user-2890856 | | #23

    Sorry Brad . I was away in Plattsburgh Ny tearing out and replacing a poorly designed / underperorming radiant system installed by the "Local Wizard" . HTP tech support is the best I have experienced from any manufacturer in over 30 years .

  24. mr_stop | | #24

    The unit arrived today I have to say I'm pretty impressed. Here's some pics:

    Stout packaging protecting the unit...

    Uncrated..
    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/VLKksqcYLeshPeyETfqwYAeGxPSWaHPBUKRNbJyc858=w173-h259-p-no

    Easily accessible mechanicals; behind sits a stainless steel tank wrapped in 2" of foam...
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/WfuF4pAnWtZbNMbDAQyOJVTPvVVL1USJUGIth8nyE-I=w173-h259-p-no

    Connections include an auxiliary port if you want to add a hot water recirculation system or heat exchanger; includes a termination fitting for the intake...
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/9yqjHTz5lyVILzLW_NQYvXLHB7nS3WKkIzXbBjbPFyY=w389-h259-p-no

    Next to it's soon to be 40 gallon leaky predecessor; bye-bye flue...
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/5caO5SOnH6JNUVr3uQDuY0ODYGzQZ0DcQsXXYH4Sst8=w173-h259-p-no

    Edit: I'm not sure how to get the images to show up, but you can also see them here: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/sealed-combustion-powered-direct-vent-water-heater.59061/#post-439185

  25. user-2890856 | | #25

    Brad ,
    Nice water heater there . Congratulations , you are now the proud owner of a machine that true professionals choose to install and stake their reputation on . Take care of your investment and it should outlast the warranty period by a good stretch . The tank will probably never be a problem and as you can clearly see , all other parts are easily replaceable when and if the time arises .

    Rich

  26. minnmike | | #26

    Brad,

    Looking forward to reading about your real world experience with installation and performance of your fancy new water heater. Also, install picts would be great especially the venting runs.

    cheers
    Mike

  27. user-2890856 | | #27

    Brad ,

    Very glad to hear your happy with the unit and it performs as stated . Please let us know about fuel usage under regular usage . The thing about these HTP tank type units is a very special heat exchanger thought up and created right there by a few very smart folks . Don't believe anything as efficient at transferring heat will be thought up for quite some time . Thanks Brian French and Dave Davis .

  28. mr_stop | | #28

    I thought I would provide a little update and share my early impressions of the HTP Phoenix LD. It has been a long install process as I have been upgrading plumbing along the way in whatever free time I can find.

    The water heater is set to 140 degrees. After which, a mixing valve tempers the water down to 120 degrees. I am amazed at how fast this heater brings water up to temperature. You can monitor the water temp on the display which is pretty fun (for a geek like me). The incoming water was about 44 degree's and it was up to temp in no time.

    I have given it a little torture test. Four consecutive showers with one partially overlapping and hot water was to be had by all! As my family was showering, I occasionally monitored the water heater temps. I noticed that in the bathroom with a low flow head (1.85 GPM - Delta Faucet 75152 Water Amplifying Adjustable Showerhead with H2OKINETIC Technology), the water heater kept up with and slightly surpassed the hot water demand. The other shower has some older off-brand hand held that is probably 3+ GPM. In that bathroom, the water heater couldn't quite keep up and you could see temperature slipping. Near the end of the 3rd shower (which had a slight overlap with the second), the water heater temp was down to about 95 degrees. I took the fourth shower and the water was plenty hot. I went downstairs about 3-5 minutes afterwards and the water heater was already back to about 140 degrees.

    My only negative at this point is that there is a loud fan which looks like it cools an electric board. I still have part of the case off, so I hope that sound diminishes afterwards. It's in a utility room in my basement, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Other than that, the unit is totally quiet. I could not hear the burner nor the power vent. The only indication that it was working was the temp increasing on the display.

  29. mr_stop | | #29

    I did a short write up with pics of my install here if you are interested: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/water-distribution-re-plumb.59287/#post-446983

  30. ruffryder | | #30

    Brad, I am not sure if you still monitor this forum, but I am curious as to how the water heater has been working for you. Are you still happy with your purchase?

  31. Cookdchef | | #31

    I would recommend the AO Smith ATI-540H-N Condensing RHW. They have better impoved their product since the last time and you can check it out here: https://amzn.to/2EElMUO

  32. _jt | | #32

    I'm happy with my Rheem hybrid. It is huge - much bigger than what it replaced. Water quality is good. For 2-3 showers + clothes washer + dishwasher we are averaging about 2 kw per day. It's seated next to the furnace in a large basement. Zero measurable change in humidity or temperature of the basement. (Probably due to relatively low usage)

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