Thermobuilt Casualty
I started out with a dream to retire to a home where we could live inexpensively, and generate our own energy. My dream is in serious jeopardy because I trusted the wrong people and paid a big price for doing so.
My wife and I just completed our home exterior shell using a product called Thermobuilt (TB). They sell alternatives to SIPS that are supposed to be cheaper. Their web site makes all sorts of claims that I now seriously doubt.
So, after talking to some folks with experience, even some who have commented here, I decided to go with this company to help with my green build. My primary objective was to build a net zero home, and TB gave me assurances that they would be there to answer questions along the way to help ensure I didn’t hit any snags or issues. What I soon learned was that, in my opinion, this company was more concerned about being in constant “CYA” mode.
Here is an overview of my experience. The Thermobuilt (TB) process starts with an estimate, to build just the frame, to buy their insulation for walls and roofs, and a Thermobuilt guide that was supposed to help you figure out how this home would be built. The estimate was a little over $50,000. This estimate was made a little more than a year ago, and since then, wood prices have either stayed consistent or dropped (source: https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber). See the attached chart.
The reason I mentioned this is that part of the estimate included lumber and there was a clause in the contract that said something to the effect that Thermobuilt would not be held responsible for any mistake they might have made and that the client would be responsible no matter what. Take a hypothetical: if a mistake was made in the original estimate and the incorrect ceiling joists were chosen,? and when the time came to purchase the lumber, the error was discovered and the price came back much higher. It appears to me that TB could not be held responsible, according to my interpretation of their contract and the risk is always on the client.
The biggest issue I have at this point is the numerous issues I have had with communications with this company. I really felt that they were going to work with me and help me through some issues regarding building this home. When the time came, instead of help, all I got were, in my opinion, head winds. Others have said that this system requires special expertise to build. That is what I should have been told instead. Finally, certain things occurred that made me question the truthfulness of the things I was being told. Most were little things but in my experience, if you can’t tell the truth in small things, how can you be trusted in large things. Perhaps I am naive, but wouldn’t it be nice for once if a company went out of its way to help a client succeed rather than just make money. I’m not saying that they should not make money, they should, however, companies that make longer term rather than short-term gains tend to last longer, have fewer complaints, and come out far ahead. Unfortunately, some of us see the fast profit.
I cannot say that I was lied to in any material way, but I can say that things do not feel right to me. When I did complain, I received excuse after excuse. For example, when we received our product from Thermobuilt, I and several others on site felt there were issues with the way the product was cut for installation. The channels in the foam had several off-sets that, in my opinion, caused the surface of both the internal and external walls to shift. The excuse that made it even after I sent pictures was that it was due to the swelling of wood that got wet. I measured the width of the bottom plates and they were right on the mark, Then I was told that these even with the offsets were within tolerances. I have no idea what the tolerances are supposed to be? So when I complained further, i was told that I should be able to handle it with a hot wire or a rasp. Well, we tried, and in my experience, it takes hours, especially when so many were not even. I asked for some consideration in price because of these and some other related issues and was told no.
I am still optimistic that things will turn out okay; only time will tell.
thx
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edit - Please see comment #2. That said, I won't be editing/correcting my original comment, as it may still provide useful information for someone building with standard SIPs.
original comment -
I don't mean to downplay your experience, especially with regard to the lumber package. I have no experience with Thermobuilt.
But your electrician may have been taking advantage of you. Cutting out a small rectangle of OSB and foam to install an electrical box is a very few minutes of work. If Thermobuilt provides electrical chases in their panels as the major SIP manufacturers do, then the additional work on the electrician's part shouldn't amount to more than a few hours on a normal sized house.
That said, an electrician with no experience in SIPs is very likely to overestimate the "trouble" involved and to provide an unjustifiably high bid.
Here's a short video that demonstrates how quick the process is when somebody with experience does it.
https://youtu.be/p_4NRkkcnkM
I'd find an electrician who has done some ICF work. ICFs are pretty common in basements these days, so it shouldn't be hard to find someone who has some experience. From what I've seen, a little electric chainsaw can make really quick work of running wires in foam.
Thank you. Iwe are building in a very rural area so experience is difficult to find. I may have to do the cut outs myself.
Thx for the vid. Thermobuilt panels are foam insulation that fits between 24oc studs. The chases are at the bottom of the panels at plug height. The lack of osb on the inside introduces many issues. e.g., difficulty attaching dry wall and previously mentioned electrical issues. I should also mention this a house built on a slab.
Sounds like you're in a tough situation. To be clear, Thermobuiult is not a SIP system. It's prefab EPS foam chunks that fit between studs and rafters, which requires conventional framing done with a high degree of precision and an electrician willing to work around the stuff. I imagine it would be a challenging custom build even for a pro. I hope you're able to find your way through.
Thx, I’m doing my best I’m determined to finish the house.
Deleted
ThermoBuilt is very sorry to learn about this on this forum.
We want to help, and for months we have tried to confirm who this customer is but haven’t been able to. If you are having a challenge with our product we will do everything possible to help. Give us a chance to work through this with you.
For over 20 years our aim has been quality products and excellent homeowner satisfaction, and although a dissatisfied ThermoBuilt customer is really rare we realize we’re not perfect.
Please contact us and tell us what's happening. Hearing directly from you to discuss this will allow us to provide you solutions.
You can use your project specific email address that was provided at the time of your delivery or call us directly.
Hope we hear from you soon!
- ThermoBuilt Systems Customer Support
I was surprised to see this posting especially after the initial reply was deleted with different content. Thermobuilt principles know exactly who I am, which begs the question why say they don’t? I believe they are creating what is called a “Red Herring”. “A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important question. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences toward a false conclusion. “
“Wikipedia
The use of a such a device should indicate the type of person(s) you are dealing with.
Update on original issues:
There are two outstanding issues. 1st the quality of the foam cuts. Many of the main foam pieces had offsets that caused them to not line up. I provided images to the owner who initially agreed to make it right. I think the last correspondence on this issue was met with them saying I needed to provide evidence. I did, since then crickets.
The second issue is with the method used for determining cost. They are using a garage square footage much higher than is indicated on the plans and by actual measurement.
I also mentioned in my original post the issues my plumber and electrician are having. Thermobuilt provides chases on the bottom of some panels, but with most fixtures like lights being far away means they have to cut paths through foam. Thermobuilt provided a hot knife which lasted about two days before it stopped. We have resorted to jab saws which is a pain to use when cutting foam. I would be happy to put anyone in contact with these tradesmen if they would like to ask their opinion of the challenges working with this product.
The above comment “red herring” is indicative of how this could company has communicated with me. Many communications are in my opinion full of contradictory information, and inconsistent responses from day to day.
My recommendation for anyone considering this company is to be careful, read the contracts, get promises in writing, and above all else do not approach the building of a new home as a novice hoping that Thermobuilt will provide you the information and support you need to complete your project. Actual this is what any new home builder should do and more to ensure a successful outcome.
For more than 20 years ThermoBuilt has built a reputation for providing innovative products and services for super energy efficient buildings, helping customers build high quality, easy to build and affordable custom homes.
We have only one customer with a complaint about our products and services, however we are not able to authenticate the author of this posting because when asked, the author would not confirm (or deny) that he is the owner of this posting.
This author’s first complaint was posted while we were still hearing from the customer:
a) what was the nature of the complaint
b) obtain additional clarifying documentation (clear photos and field measurements) to confirm it
c) the customer ordered a significant 4-car garage add-on package and asked us to expedite it's delivery (even though this customer had a complaint).
In other words, he told us he was unhappy but was eager to purchase an additional 4-car garage add-on package to complete a last minute addition to his home.
The author has since completely updated this posting removing other claims because ThermoBuilt was able to demonstrate we were not at fault, and the customer agreed. This has been our experience trying to work with this customer.
The customer refuses to provide the additional requested detailed photos that would clearly support his claim, including detailed photos of as-built site measurements so ThermoBuilt can confirm the true nature of the claim (either due to ThermoBuilt or a customer site assembly error).
The only attempt by this customer to resolve this claim was a demand for a substantial refund and if we agreed to it, he would forget about his claim, which led us to want to confirm the true nature of the claim. His only interest was in a substantial refund well in excess of the claim. He did not ask for any replacement parts. He only wanted refund money.
He was able to successfully use all of the custom panels we produced for him to complete the thermal shell his custom new home.
No service we provided or product we produced (which was a full customized panel package for a custom home) caused any harm to his project including his budget. Other building materials, like his choice of multiple 16ft wide multi-panel doors (which were not a part of the scope of materials from our company) were a much more significant cost to his budget than the entirety of the custom home package we delivered.
This customer suggested that if he decided to publicize a complaint, it would be an attempt to deter future customers from doing business with us, hoping to leverage us while inhibiting our ability to fairly determine the validity of his claim and resolve it unless we fully agreed to his demands.
We don't believe the public forum is the appropriate place for this. Our response here is only to add the necessary context and provide the facts. We will no longer publicly reply to this post and ask if this customer can provide ThermoBuilt the additional documentation asked for and allow us to confirm the nature of the claim we will again willingly offer all of our resources to help him resolve any issues he may be experiencing. We are committed to a fair resolution. We have not been able to confirm the full scope of any of his claims.
We will discuss the nature of the complaint, what information ThermoBuilt is waiting for, and what our efforts have been made to resolve the claim fairly and equitably to those wanting these details from our company.
Anyone considering us for their next project should have all the facts so that, in their own judgment, they can make a sound decision.
We look forward to hearing from you. You can find our contact form on our website at: https://www.thermobuilt.com/contact/
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- ThermoBuilt Systems Customer Support
Setting the record straight:
Now that I have more time to provide the most complete information, I want to respond to Thermobuilt's statements. I have always believed that when someone lies about small things, they will misrepresent almost anything to get ahead. Let's call him JH. The principal at Thermoibuilt started by making false statements about his company, its size, and other seemingly small details. When I called him out on it he became angry and insisted it was not my business.
Let me address the last comments:
1. "Only a single complaint in over 20 years."
Read on, and you will see another complaint. I would state that there are more than the two you have seen. A company that has been working with customers for over 20 years will certainly have some complaints. You can see that saying a single complaint is a lie; how many more??? Why make up the facts?
2. "This author’s first complaint was posted while we were still hearing from the customer":
Another false statement. I posted this after I got nowhere with bringing my complaint directly to them. What upset me was that they continually misstated the problem. I have provided images and other proof that were ignored.
I did edit my original complaint because I had incorrectly stated the source of my being overcharged. I have updated it to reflect an overcharge for the garage. I never agreed that they did not overcharge me. I was wrong about what the source was. JH knows this and hides enough of the truth to have it appear that he was right. No, he was better at hiding how he overcharged for a garage that he said I was eager to purchase. I was on-site when I realized this super easy product from TB did not include a garage embedded in the house. I had to do something, or I would have half a home. In addition to the garage, there is a tall wall down the middle of the house, they didn't provide the correct measurements for the base of this wall because it didn't have foam in it. For a new builder or DIY, there are so many things you don't know when you hear how easy this product is and that they would assist you through the build. Wait until they get a little busy. Sorry, we want to talk to your contractor.
3. "The customer refuses to provide the additional requested detailed photos that would clearly support his claim, including detailed photos of as-built site measurements so ThermoBuilt can confirm the true nature of the claim (either due to ThermoBuilt or a customer site assembly error)." FALSE, I have done so on several occasions.
4. "The only attempt by this customer to resolve this claim was a demand for a substantial refund and if we agreed to it, he would forget about his claim, which led us to want to confirm the true nature of the claim. His only interest was in a substantial refund well in excess of the claim. He did not ask for any replacement parts. He only wanted a refund money. "
Another False statement. But tell me, when you are overcharged for something, how can you receive replacement parts to make things right. Yes I would like to have the amount you overcharged me for the garage. The SQFT for the garage is shown on the plans, however apparently at least one person at TB cant read because they padded the number resulting in additional revenue.
5. "He was able to successfully use all of the custom panels we produced for him to complete the thermal shell his custom new home. "
FALSE, I have bad pieces of foam everywhere. I had to go to Lowes to purchase additional insulation just to complete his mistakes.
6. "No service we provided or product we produced (which was a full customized panel package for a custom home) caused any harm to his project including his budget. Other building materials, like his choice of multiple 16ft wide multi-panel doors (which were not a part of the scope of materials from our company) were a much more significant cost to his budget than the entirety of the custom home package we delivered."
This is a good example of how JH deals with his customers. He makes a statement he cannot substantiate and then acts like it is the full truth. Sorry, JH, your knowledge is limited, and what's worse, you know this is a made-up assumption. You can't say that when you overcharge for something, no harm is caused. Please enlighten us with your logic.
7. "This customer suggested that if he decided to publicize a complaint, it would be an attempt to deter future customers from doing business with us, hoping to leverage us while inhibiting our ability to fairly determine the validity of his claim and resolve it unless we fully agreed to his demands."
False, I never once said that. I said that I could not let TB rip off another person with a substandard product. I also suggested that anyone doing business with TB read the contract because they will hear after an error is made that the contract states that TB is not responsible for any errors in any part of this process. This included material estimates and other info they provided
8. "We don't believe the public forum is the appropriate place for this. Our response here is only to add the necessary context and provide the facts. We will no longer publicly reply to this post and ask if this customer can provide ThermoBuilt the additional documentation asked for and allow us to confirm the nature of the claim we will again willingly offer all of our resources to help him resolve any issues he may be experiencing. We are committed to a fair resolution. We have not been able to confirm the full scope of any of his claims."
Of course, you don't; you can't control the narrative in a public forum. If you have nothing to hide, why hide? You have all the facts and are well aware of my complaint. So stop trying to control everything and try a little truth.
Buyer, beware! That should be TBs slogan. I would be interested in seeing these equitable details, too.
From my experience with TB, even if there were none of these additional issues, I would, if given a second chance, use Closed Cell Spray foam to fill any cavity, ensure there were no air leaks, and save around 30 grand.
If this post helps one person to ask questions then it was worth the time it took to write it.
In support of the original author, I can concur with difficulties in working with ThermoBuilt. I just finished my 2500 sq ft build October of 2023. I too was looking for a super efficient way to build my new home and came across Thermobuilt as an alternative. Sounded good from the website and phone conversation with the company owner.
The Thermobuilt take off was the first of many problems. They way over estimated the materials needed (framing). Fortunately the lumber yard I work with took all the material back with the exception of the engineered wood products, which, by nature are not returnable. I made the owner aware of the issue early on and itemized the wrong material, I inquired about reimbursement months later was told I needed to now supply pictures of the incorrect material for a 'ticket' to be written. Engineered wood products do not yard well here in the Pacific Northwest and I gave the material away to get it off my site. Loss to me was about $2500. Company wouldn't budge on compensating.
The build itself was very difficult (understand I have built over 25 new homes as a contractor) with a tremendous amount of furring and work to make the panels fit properly. The subs brought in complained constantly about the foam install. All had experience working on SIP's install, but never a Thermobuilt. This product is not a DIY install, without significant construction knowledge you will struggle.
I did have great difficulty in vetting Thermobuilt. The company would not supply the name of any customer or builder siting privacy concerns. I was able to source a single builder back east who was very enthusiastic about the product and very helpful in my decision to purchase. There is a dearth of information about Thermobuilt (other than their website) on the internet. This thread here was a first expressing some truths about difficulties working with the company.
Bottom line is be forewarned. I for one won't use again nor recommend this vendor. If you want more detail about my issues, happy to respond. I do have all the email records of correspondence with the owner.
As the OP, I am glad you decided to reply. The principle at Thermobuilt, JH is clearly a good salesman, but as far as I know is not an engineer. I’m not sure if he has even put together one of his “Styrofoam” homes, (this is what the contractors, subs, and even inspectors call our home) because if he had he would immediately remove the primary heading on his website: (attachment 1) stating that the system is in any way easy. You are right the panels don’t fit, then in our case there were offsets in panels meaning they would never line up correctly (see attachment 2+). You can clearly see that the location of the cut in the foam is not correct and imagine you received 100 of these all will various offsets, what would you drywall look like? They refused to offer any compensation for these errors. They then said I needed to supply pictures which did.
I believe that the lack of truth related to this project from my experience is that the TB principle, says things, makes promises, then changes the truth. Read carefully his responses and you will see little inconsistencies and changes to fit the current narrative. Have you ever heard of a company like this who won’t supply references? I haven’t but now there is at least a second.
I’m sorry @Tired_Builder for your experience. I would encourage others who have similar experiences either good or bad to chime in and help to shed light on this company. That’s the only way we can hold companies like this accountable. In my experience with TB asking them to do the right thing is a waste of time.
Thx OP