Seeking ERV Recommendations
I have an UltimateAir 200DX that is failing* and I am considering replacing it. I’ve seen the threads at:
I need some help figuring out what ERV I need. House is 1600′ sq, usually has 4 occupants, in climate zone 6-7 (Rocky Mts.).
The ERV system is installed in crawlspace and ducted throughout house. It’s wired to timer buttons in bathrooms and main living area that boost CFM when someone showers or we want to clear the air. There are 2 inline heaters — the first is on the fresh air line, before the ERV, and is configured to get incoming fresh air up to 12 degrees. The second is on the fresh air line, after the ERV, and is configured to make sure the air headed to the house is above 63 degrees.
I would like a system that allows the same variable CFM, is not incompatible with the inline heater setup, and ventilates to the recommended levels, but is perhaps simpler to maintain.
Based on the threads above, the RenewAire EV130 seems like a good pick — is it? When I compare prices for it and the UltimateAir, the RenewAir is less than half the price. And it’s also less than half the price of a Zendher ComfoAir. Why the price difference?
* For the curious: The UltimateAir unit is just over a year old. It has a plastic wheel holding some heat-exchanging filter materials that spins constantly, by design — an “enthalpy pie”, some have called it. On several occasions, a piece of the plastic wheel has broken off, jammed in the inside of the unit, and halted the wheel. This jamming eventually caused the variable-speed motor that spins the wheel to fail. I had UltimateAir send out a new motor on warranty, and paid someone out of pocket to replace it, and after 4 months the new motor has failed again. The folks at UltimateAir have been helpful when I reach out, and I’m exploring whether they would warranty this system. But even then I’ll probably have to pay for installation, and at that point I’m definitely curious about other systems.
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The RenewAire EV130 is a pretty average performance unit. Depending on the number of bedrooms for your house you'll probably need around 60 to 90cfm of flow.
A high performance budget ERV that is about the right size is the Panasonic Intellibalance but it doesn't have a boost function.
A much larger and much more expensive unit is the vänEE G2400E ECM (there is a Broan and Venmar unit that are indetical) that does have boost function.
Generally what you want to look for is a unit that has a counterflow core (hexagonal shape, not square) and ECM blower. The ECM blower is important for electricity use, these consume about 1/2 the power of standard blowers.
P.S. If you replace the rotary core unit, disable the intake air heater. Since the heat from this has to go through the core before getting to the house, 60% to 70% is transferred to the exhaust stream and sent out of the house. Most modern ERVs have controls and defrost strategy to deal with cold climates that consume much less energy than a pre-heater.
The outlet heater is not a problem.
The Panasonic Intelli-Balance 100 now has the boost function. I thought I would post this for those doing research of their own.
"Occupant controllable Boost function. Moves fan speed to high when activated"
https://na.panasonic.com/us/home-and-building-solutions/ventilation-indoor-air-quality/energy-recovery-ventilators/intelli-balancetm-100-balanced-air-50-100cfm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiqSh-q-P8AIV-WxvBB1rvw84EAAYASAAEgJdo_D_BwE
Arnold
Akos, thanks. That was a really helpful reply.
I have finally found an installer. They are willing to install a Broan 250TE, which looks like it has the features you recommend. The installed price for that is $4600.
The installer is also willing to install a Zendher ComfoAir 350, for about $6k.
That's a lot of money for us right now; it will mean we put off something else important. Is the price difference worth it? Is the Zendher 30% better? Is it equally serviceable (in the US)?
And, an update on UltimateAir: When the pandemic hit, they let go everyone. They're not answering emails and not honoring warranties. I'm still trying to figure out what to do next about that.
I'm surprised that they won't respond to emails and phone calls. Even if they closed the shop, why not keep the operations minimal until things get going again? Sad to see UltimateAir do this to their customers.
I'm only speculating, but if they were already on the thin edge of profitability, the loss of revenue of the pandemic might have effectively put them under. Then there would be no point in maintaining any level of business. Time will tell.
I heard directly from one of the key employees that there is no operations right now. And then the conversation went silent.
If other UltimateAir customers find themselves inside the warranty period (like I am) and holding a lemon (which, based on the nature of my issues, I think most are), feel free to reach out. Maybe some organized action is possible.
I have a Zehnder unit, and have never regretted it. UltimateAir was also in the running, so I'm very grateful now we didn't go with that.
On the subject of pre-heating the air (Zehnder and UltimateAir) vs defrost strategy (every other brand on the North American market), there's a give and take. Yes, the defrost strategies are more energy efficient, but as they say there's no such thing as a free lunch. The strategies they employ are either (or a combination of) recirculating stale air back into the house or suspending fresh air delivery for a period of time. Both of these is counter to the purpose of the device. Take a close look at the defrost strategy for the Broan unit. If it's anything like the 2400 that Akos mentioned (likely, since it's made by the same company), you will notice that at low temperatures the effective fresh air delivery drops to almost zero. I guess they think that breathing is something you can hold off on until the weather warms up.
I'd actually recommend disabling the post heater, unless your primary heat source is already electric. That's just wasted electricity, IMO. If the supply air is 60F instead of 63F, you're not going to notice.
On a more general note, don't skimp on the ventilation capacity. Take the recommended amount by the latest ASHRAE standard and double it, then add at least 50% over capacity for boost. I can tell you from having CO2 monitors in a very tight house than 60cfm for 4 people won't cut it. It doesn't even cut it for 3 people. And then remember that sometimes you're going to have people over sometimes. CO2 levels start to run away exponentially in a matter of a couple of hours when you fill up the house with extra people. The 200-250cfm range for the two units you're looking at is good, and not overkill at all.
Try to get another quote, or look at self install for the unit. Those prices seem way too high for an install that already has all the duct in place. The CA350 was about $2600 a couple of years ago, and it should only take a couple hours, maybe half a day if you're being really generous to replace an ERV. That shouldn't be thousands of dollars.
Thank you Trevor! That's very helpful.
Regarding defrost mode on the Broan, the specs (https://www.broan-nutone.com/getmedia/312a43c4-3883-4a28-a39c-fc01843e19ea/Spec-Sheet-ERV250TE.pdf?ext=.pdf) say the coldest temperature (-17F and below) will trigger a 10 minute defrost, 25 minute ventilation cycle. That would happen a couple nights a year where we are, and it sounds like a reasonable balance to me (a total layman), so maybe this is an OK setup?
Regarding heat, the main heat is a minisplit, which is a lot more efficient than post heat. If the ERV is doing its job, we shouldn't need post-heat. I might set it to come on at 60, though; if it's so cold that the post-exchange temperature of air is <60 degrees, it seems like a good idea to supplement, no?
Regarding self install, I'm pretty handy but I've never done HVAC work. So I'm hesitant. But maybe?
On that note, I just looked at specs again and I think the Zendher is 2" too large to fit into crawlspace access. So maybe the decision is easier than I thought.
If that is the only limitation, then that's not bad. I'd still be trying to figure out how to make up that ~30% loss of fresh air during those times. Here is a graphic of the G2400 control scheme. As you can see, there are pretty large areas with 1/3 or lower ventilation rate (the little leaf symbol is eco mode, which is 50 minutes of every hour dedicated to defrost).
Edit: I just looked up the Broan 250TE. I'm sorry to say, but as far as I can tell, this model uses the exact same control, and therefore the same control scheme you see below, as the vanEE G2400. Check it out:
https://www.broan-nutone.com/en-us/accessory/vt9w
https://www.vanee.ca/en/products/accessory/71-gold-touch-wall-control.html
The Zhander and the Broan units have similar efficiency specs, looks like the Zhander unit has better filtering. Not sure that is worth the extra cost though. If you want better filter, the best is an insulated in-line filter box before the HRV. Longer lasting and much cheaper to change.
If you look at the VanEE controls, it run in intermittent mode only if the indoor air becomes too dry. Rest of the time, it will run in continuous mode.
The bit of time it spends on recirc for defrost in very cold weather won't matter too much. You can always crank up the system on boost a bit if you find the air getting stale.
Make sure to install a boost switch in your kitchen, this is the one I find I use the most.
Hey jiggy
I have recently had the same issues with ultimate air, they have not responded to phone calls or emails in over 6 weeks and I have been emailing jason morosko directly through his company email.
If you are still active on this board shoot me an email...
[email protected], I tried to figure out how to contact you through the site to no avail.
Thanks Nate
Hey guys. In the same boat.
My plastic wheel won’t spin either
And now my unit needs maintenance but likely just needs replaced. It’s only a year and half old
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Hi All,
A little follow up about Ultimate Air and the 200 DX units, I too have been trying to contact them for support. I have had some luck and received extra wheel belts but it sounds like its just one person coming in the office every couple weeks to answer emails. I think they are done. I have installed about 8 of these units over the years and would like to keep them going. If anyone wants to trash there unit, I would buy it for parts.
I've warranty repaired a couple of motors and belts but now think I have one with a circuit board issue, neither fan will run yet the fans are good. It would be nice if someone set up a tech email/hotline who knew these units.
To Sell a Ultimate Air 200DX contact Brian, [email protected]
Thanks,
Brian
Im in the same boat. The motor that drives the pie tray is not spinning. Been trying to contact them for 2 months nothing. Voicemails, e-mails, no response. The guy I worked with Nolan Muhn, looks like he is working at Lowes now. Not sure what to do about this.... Does anyone know the part number on that motor? Maybe I can source it somewhere else. I would like to try and get at least another year from this ERV. Guess we will have to start looking at another ERV system...
The Renewaire EV Premium L or the EV90P have pretty decent performance at fairly high airflow rates. (they use the same oversized core).
The EV Premium M used a smaller core but still has the nice ECM fans (it's what I have).
The EV Premium M/L both have ECM fans and manual electronic balancing.
Efficiency is almost as good as the counterflow units.
ECM fans are a no-brainer at this point for whatever brand you choice. They'll have a longer life at a lower rpm, versus than screaming away and needing to be dampered down for balancing like PSC fans.
I considered the VanEE Gold series 2400 ERV with the counterflow but it was too expensive. Panasonic intellibance just didn't have the boost volume I was looking for but otherwise a top pick with nice electronic auto balancing (compensates for changes in ESP automatically).
Im also an owner of a 200DX
My filter wheel spins full speed, I did finally get a reply saying the “brain” was fried and they cant help me. I was able to get a few spare filter sets and a extra drive belt. Im
Going to disassemble the unit and see If i can get to the board. Im hoping I can repair the board or find a cause. Normal operation when the power is applied to unit the wheel spins up fast and then slows down. Im not sure what the logic is or if outdoor temps affect wheel speed.
My thought is some of the components can be sourced outside of ultimate air. You can buy thick filter material in sheets and cut the pies if needed. For one of the most expensive ervs its a shame I only got a year out of it. It has had a few issues, one was just poor quality control on assembly.
If we all got together maybe we could pool enough resources to keep these going for a while longer.
Feel free to message or email me about this. [email protected]
I have two of these in my house. In addition to ventilation, I use them to distribute heat through hydronic fan coils that are installed in the supply ductwork. I have needed to replace the drive belts many times over the years. Last year I bought a bunch belts from a belt supplier when UltimateAir stopped answering. Now, I think one needs to be replaced soon. I just found out that a new option will be available this summer, it's a 60-200 CFM unit from Panasonic. I'm excited to look at that option as well. It has a sensible heat recovery of 80%.
Has Panasonic published any details on this new ERV?
Hi Patrick,
You found other belts that are compatible, any chance you could provide a link to the supplier of the belts you found ? Thank you, Brian
McMaster carr has round drive belts. There 1/8” diameter. I measured my spare and I believe there 10 1/2” but if you had a broken one maybe you can measure and confirm?
https://www.mcmaster.com/round-belts/round-belts-8/
I bought my replacement belts at ebelting.com. I used the information from the packing slip on the last belts I had received from Ultimate Air: 1/8" by 10.75" and the material was 83A.
Hello @Earth_Advantage
I'm trying to find the belt size for UltimateAir DX200 ERV. I had a spare belt from UltimateAir but it seems a slightly thicker than one that came with the Unit, so it doesn't sit in the wheel.
Do you happen to know the exact size of the belt ? you said you bought from ebelting.com Ultimate Air: 1/8" by 10.75" and the material was 83A. Were you able to use this new belt ?
Any help would be appreciated.
The Panasonic specs are not on their website yet. I work at a green building organization and I saw the specs on the 200 cfm unit as part of a Panasonic presentation last week. I believe they will be available through distributors in July if all goes according to plan. It would be called the Intelli-Balance 200.
The 100 is too small so an Intelli-Balance 200 would be perfect for my install. Unfortunately, July is too late for me. I'm currently looking at the new Broan AI Series which might be an option for OP.
https://www.broan-nutone.com/en-us/product/freshairsystems/b160e75rs
Those Broan AI Series units look very nice. Curiously though, nowhere in the online documentation do they say how much power the motors use. Have you found this information?
I haven't looked but their tech support is super helpful.
The Broan website seems to have some issues. If you filter the ERVs and HRVs to list only Energy Star rated models, it still lists units with no certification. I did notice that the Energy Star rated HE series ERV has an ECM motor and the product details include power consumption. It's balanced and delivers up to 241 CFM. It's specs are identical to the Venmar X30 (https://www.venmar.ca/136-air-exchangers-x30erv-ecm-new.html).
Following. I too have a pair of DX200's both of which are less than a year old both of which are causing problems. One the disc doesn't spin at all. The other the disc spins but rubs and makes a terrible noise on the EPS.
My installer is pushing back on paying for replacements. He will not buy anything he can't get from his supply house making Zhander out of the question. I'm not sure what he can get but his last offering was for an April Air unit.
Edited to subscribe.
Any updates on the Intelli-Balance 200 possible availability this summer?
I could not find any info to order one last week. I think its delayed.
I did a lot of research to replace my 200DX, I went with the renewaire EV Premium L ($1370 to my
door) It was that or the zender comfoair Q 350 ($3850+ to my door) . Based on the efficiency data the zender didn’t seem worth more than double the cost.
I installed it myself, the zender would have required 220v wiring and a condensate drain. More work I didn’t want to do.
The rep claims the Premium L will work down to -10f without a preheater, We will see.
Now that I can take the 200DX apart I will see if I can troubleshoot the control bord or come up with an alternate way to control the exchanger wheel speed. If nothing else to help someone else.
Matt how is the EV Premium L working out? That's up there on my list but as noted in my spreadsheet below is has a low CFM per watt of power used compared to others.
I am also looking to replace my Ultimateair 200dx. I am also considering going with renewaire. My 220dx is wired to the control panel of my waterfurnace geothermal system. It looks like the same wire goes from 200dx to the ventilation control to the waterfurnace control panel to a zone damper (see pic). It would be nice if I could install a new unit by reattaching the ductwork, but this appears to be wishful thinking.
Believe it or not, I live in Effingham Illinois, and the heating and air companies I have called have little or no experience installing an erv. The waterfurnace installer was totally clueless.
The original system was installed by a company 70 miles away, and they no longer service this area. So, I a little concerned about getting it installed and being overcharged.
Guys I put together a spreadsheet that is an evolution of the one I received from [email protected] to try and make some sense of the efficiencies. See jpg attached.
These numbers are taken from https://www.hvi.org/hvi-certified-products-directory/section-iii-hrv-erv-directory-listing/
I too have been looking at the RenewAire EV Premium L but it's electrical efficiency (CFM/watt) seems to be poor compared to the Broans.
If anybody has any other comparison tools for the ERVs that could replace the DX200s let me know. If you see any errors in my spreadhseet also let me know.
Cheers,
Steve
Edited: You might have to download the JPG as it's just a screen capture of my excel. xlxs isn't an approved file type!
Steve, I tried to download your JPG but it's tiny and the comparison is not legible. Can you post the larger version if possible?
i tried taking a look at ur photo but it’s too blurry; any chance u could upload a better photo pls
Tim + beedigs,
The full size image is available (at present, anyway), via the following link.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/greenbuildingadvisor.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2021/07/19010808/ERV-Comparison.jpg
In general, the GBA website will create a smaller "thumbnail" version of any image that is uploaded. So Steve's original upload "ERV-Comparison.jpg" gets replaced with "ERV-Comparison-scaled-300x224.jpg". More often than not, you can lop off the end of the filename to recover the original.
Cheers
Hey guys,
I realize I'm coming in late into this post but I too started having issues with my 200DX. It's a bit over three years old and the filter wheel stopped spinning. Upon opening up the bottom cover (my unit is suspended), I caught a torn motor belt in my hands. Since Ultimate Air operations appear to be dead or near dead by now, I can try to order the belt elsewhere but wanted to ask for a group opinion before proceeding. The wheel itself is a bit skewed on its axis and rubbing against the EPS shell when spun manually. Does it mean something got loose other than a broken belt? Is it worth trying a DIY repair at this point or look for new ERV? If new ERV is a more feasible option, do you mind posting a shortlist of comparable models? A bragged about 96% efficiency ratio from UA is hard to beat but I'd like to research newly available options before breaking a bank with Zhender or Venmar.
I also have a second unit, ER80M, that takes care of the second-floor bedrooms - worked ok for now but can't wait to see what surprises it has for me in the near future.
Appreciate any feedback on this.
Okay so I have done a fair bit of research on what to replace my failed UltimateAir 200DX with. I'm going with the Renewaire EV Premium M. I've talked to the Renewaire tech support guys quite a bit over the past week or two and they are on top of their game. They know their product line which is more than can be said for some of the tech support people I talked to at other companies.
Sorry for the blurry image of my previous spreadhseet. I've converted my excel sheet to GoogleSheets. The graph I did on the second sheet didn't come out well in goodlesheets. Anyway all my data that I've collected about potential replacements is here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15c3sVD-FTRg6nWfZH9zerYNCsRbPUqbOSKvCeik_3IQ/edit?usp=sharing
Let me know if that link doesn't work.
You'll see I tried to do across the board comparisons for all teh short list. All the data is taken from the http://www.hvi.org except for the UltimateAir data which came from a non-independent source from an UltimateAir datasheet you can still find on their website.
My criteria for the selection of an ERV was this:
1) Needed to be around 200cfm
2) Needed to fit within the existing space envelope of the UltimateAir DX200
3) Needed to have a boost function as I have no bathroom vent fans, everything goes through the ERV.
4) Needed to have an ECM motor.
5) I need it to be quiet but that isn't something I could determine from the specs.
The Broan units might be a great option for someone just starting out but I have space limitations, so I ruled these out for size.
The Zehnder would be an awesome choice but I ruled this out for size and cost.
The Honeywell unit. I ruled this out because of terrible customer support. The Honeywell tech support guys were pretty descent but they told me Honeywell had sold the entire product line to Residio. The Residio tech support guys were terrible. They didn't know anything about the product. Steer well clear of this Honeywell brand. Honeywell guys told me Residio are allowed to use the Honeywell brand for another couple of years before it sunsets to Residio.
The Venmar unit is pretty much the same as the Broan ERV200ECM.
American Standard (Ingersoll-rand?) I couldn't find out too much about this unit. It is the unit someone in my neighborhood has. I've not seen his installation but there is very little information online about it.
Anyway I hope this helps anybody looking to replace an UltimateAir 200DX. I'll continue to follow this thread in case anybody else has some useful information.
Steve
P.S. I have a 200DX that I could part out, I think the PCB is good, it's just the enthalpy wheel motor that is not functioning. The fans work fine. Pickup of parts in the Salt Lake City area would be preferable.
I have also just replaced my UltimateAir Recouperator 200DX. It was used for 5 years, and when I needed parts, it unfortunately occurred during the period of time they went out of business.
I spent a lot of time seeking out the right ERV for my "near" passive house (meets all the specs but didn't pay for the expensive plaque!). My biggest regret is that I didn't get the Zehnder system to start with; it was definitely the best of the best at the time. Being in the centre of the NA continent in Manitoba Canada, I was hoping to be able to find a decent supply chain for a good system. Tough to find, and tougher to justify the high cost of shipping, especially if UPS is involved with their atrocious duty charges.
So, now I'm looking for advice regarding this unit. Do I use it somewhere else for a different function since the central motor is inoperable? Do I part it out, and where?
Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks!
I am also looking to replace my Ultimateair 200dx. I am also considering going with renewaire. My 220dx is wired to the control panel of my waterfurnace geothermal system. It looks like the same wire goes from 200dx to the ventilation control to the waterfurnace control panel to a zone damper (see pic). It would be nice if I could install a new unit by reattaching the ductwork, but this appears to be wishful thinking.
Believe it or not, I live in Effingham Illinois, and the heating and air companies I have called have little or no experience installing an erv. The waterfurnace installer was totally clueless.
The original system was installed by a company 70 miles away, and they no longer service this area. So, I a little concerned about getting it installed and being overcharged.
I already replied to your question posted a few days back:
I’d be looking at the PanasonicFV-20VEC1 or RenewAire EV Premium LH if low power use, efficiency, and moderate price are important.
These have large cores and are quite efficient at lower air flows in the 60-90 CFM range.
This is a good resource for products:
https://www.hvi.org/hvi-certified-products-directory/section-iii-hrv-erv-directory-listing/
Based on specs, these are all the same unit:
RenewAire - EV Premium L
RenewAire - EV Premium LH
Johnson Controls - S1-TERV
S&P USA Ventilation Systems LLC -TRe300
These are not complex devices. Likely the control wire just fires up ERV so that it runs when the air handler fan is running. Any qualified HVAC installer should have no issues installing an ERV if they can read simple directions :-) The ducting/setup is already done on your existing unit, but you'll want someone who can at least balance the new unit and confirm it's working as it should with your air handler.
You need to provide more details on your current setup and upload a few pics.
Hi,
I have Ultimate Air® 200DX installed in our house in 2013. Now the belt is broken and the Recovery wheel is not turning but the machine itself is operational. Does anyone know where to buy the belt ? I understand the company Ultimate Air is out of business. Hoping someone would help. Thank you in advance.
I know this is a little late, but if the suggestions above don't help I saw some listed on ebay that may work. Alternatively a more DIY solution would be to get some polyurethane belt from Amazon etc. and make yourself many custom belts for cheap. I've done it before and it's not bad with a torch and a box knife to make a weld. As ever, Youtube can show you how. Good Luck!
This is later still, but I have an UltimateAir 200DX new in the shipping box and a second used unit with never-used enthalpy wedges if anyone wants them...
Kirk Bailey
[email protected]